Should I add extra hops to a Coopers premium tin lager?

[Anna]

With your ales Warra, after you cold condition them at 2-3 deg. for the 2 weeks and then bottle, do you then bring the temp. back up to carbonate? And for how long? Anna

[bullfrog]

Others will disagree with me, but I cold condition my ales in my primary fermenter. Often I will allow primary to ferment for 2 weeks, before dropping the temperature to 2 to 3ºC for another 2 weeks. I then bottle from primary.

I do the same, except my cold conditioning will only be about 3 or 4 days before I filter and keg.

Anna, when I bottled, I bottled still cold. It's good because you get less foaming which some say leads to minimised oxidisation, but I think just makes things a bit easier and less messy.

People will say that the bottling temperature will affect how much extra fermentables you should use to prime with, but this is nonsense. The only time temperature comes into priming calculations is when discussing the maximum temperature the brew reached post-fermentation. CO2 will come out of solution at higher temperatures and won't get forced back in when you cool it down, unless there's sufficient pressure. As your fermenters aren't being pressurised, no CO2 is dissolving back into solution.

[Anna]

Sorry Bullfrog, what I meant was AFTER bottling, do you bring the temp. back up to carbonate? Silly question probably, because I'm pretty sure you'd have to! But thanks for the techno lesson anyway!

[bullfrog]

Right, it seems that I'm always misreading things in the mornings. I should look at building an intravenous coffee drip that I can hook up to between 7 and 10 o'clock each morning!

But yes, you'd need to bring temps back up to a suitable temperature for the yeast to become active again. Otherwise they'd just stay asleep, never eat the priming fermentables and you'd never get carbonated bottles.

[warra48]

Anna,
I bottle straight from the fridge. I don't allow it to warm back up. Once bottled, they go into my beer cellar, and they warm up there to ambient temperature, allowing the yeast to consume the priming sugars.
They carbonate just fine.

If you look at BeerSmith (if you have access to that), the Carbonation tool allows you to input the temperature of the beer you are bottling, and it adjusts the recommended priming dose.

[Fifey]

Reading about diacetyl makes me glad I've finally got a use for Yr. 12 chemistry!

We are set for the lager, but is it acceptable to cold condition ales in secondary? We have plenty of cubes for conditioning, and I need a reasonable turnover on the 30L fermenter, I've got an event in early October that I thought I had enough beer left for. Not so!

Also, will Carapils benefit most beers?

[earle]

Steeping any spec malt will add body to your brew. Some brews you won't want to add much body. Also if you're using other crystal malts you won't need carapils as well.

[Fifey]

So I can guess a good median, what is the minimum length of time I can cold condition for it to be effective?

Should I add gelatine to help clarify the beer? If so, at what stage?

Keeping in mind, I am bottling, I'm not mad enough for a keg set up. Yet.

[Fifey]

Racked the lager today, it is tasting gorgeous!

I got some Carapils for the next lager. How much should I use? Might have to use LDME for the fermentables this time, rather that LLME, as I'm not sure I'm going to the homebrew shop on the weekend. I've got some Hallertau left over (which I need to measure up) as well as some Saaz to put in in it. I'm excited to see how this one goes. I'm going to ferment this over two cubes, and have an English bitter in the big fermenter.

[earle]

Perhaps start with 100-200g then adjust future brews based on that.

[drsmurto]

I do the same, except my cold conditioning will only be about 3 or 4 days before I filter and keg.

Anna, when I bottled, I bottled still cold. It's good because you get less foaming which some say leads to minimised oxidisation, but I think just makes things a bit easier and less messy.

People will say that the bottling temperature will affect how much extra fermentables you should use to prime with, but this is nonsense. The only time temperature comes into priming calculations is when discussing the maximum temperature the brew reached post-fermentation. CO2 will come out of solution at higher temperatures and won't get forced back in when you cool it down, unless there's sufficient pressure. As your fermenters aren't being pressurised, no CO2 is dissolving back into solution.

This is an oft debated subject but bullfrog has nailed the science behind it.

If you use the beersmith tool and input the actual temperature of the beer at bottling you are doing it WRONG. You need the maximum temperature it reached during the fermentation.

CO2 is a gas and doesn't like being in solution, it will come out at any opportunity. It a basic property of gas molecules. A gas will dissolve more readily in a liquid at lower temperatures.

Unless you have a sealed system, gas tight, once the CO2 comes out of solution it WILL NOT dissolve back into solution.

Fermenters are NOT gas tight. You can't carbonate a beer in a fermenter. You need a sealed system like a bottle or a keg.

The amount of residual CO2 in solution which needs to be taken into account when calculating priming amounts will be lower at higher temperatures.

Many people have noticed the CO2 coming out of solution, it's why airlocks continue to bubble long after FG is reached.

I personally bottle straight out of the fridge so very cold. The temperature i use for priming ales is generally around 20C. For lagers the temperature will depend on whether i did a diacetyl rest.

Of course this all becomes a moot point when you keg and bottle via a CPBF. The equation simply becomes temperature of the beer in the keg and the pressure of the regulator!

[squirt in the turns]

The amount of residual CO2 in solution which needs to be taken into account when calculating priming amounts will be lower at higher temperatures.

Many people have noticed the CO2 coming out of solution, it's why airlocks continue to bubble long after FG is reached.

I usually have evidence of positive pressure in my secondary fermenter for the 2 or 3 weeks the beer is in there. Usually manage to keep the temps stable, but not low enough to CC (am finally getting a dedicated fridge this weekend though ). Should this escaping CO2 be taken into account when calculating priming sugar amounts? Presumably the longer the beer is in an unsealed vessel, the more CO2 is released, the rate varying according to temperature?

Also, why doesn't the CO2 coming out of solution affect the SG (or does it?)?

[drsmurto]

I usually have evidence of positive pressure in my secondary fermenter for the 2 or 3 weeks the beer is in there. Usually manage to keep the temps stable, but not low enough to CC (am finally getting a dedicated fridge this weekend though ). Should this escaping CO2 be taken into account when calculating priming sugar amounts?

The 'escaping' CO2 is taken into account by using the highest temperature the beer reaches during fermentation.

Presumably the longer the beer is in an unsealed vessel, the more CO2 is released, the rate varying according to temperature?

Yes and if you wanted to be completely anal you would need to take into account atmospheric pressure and the system will be in equilibrium with the atmosphere. In reality though the change in temperature will have the greatest effect on CO2 in solution. Once its stabilised at a temperature it will quickly reach an equilibrium with only very small amounts of CO2 coming out of solution.

Also, why doesn't the CO2 coming out of solution affect the SG (or does it?)?

The difference in SG between pure water with zero dissolved gas and fully carbonated soda water is ~1% so can be effectively ignored.

[Fifey]

Real ale kit @ 15L experiment was a success, needs more hops though. I was thinking about doing the same thing with a Cascade draught kit, but with some spec grains and hops to improve the flavour, as I can't imagine the Cascade draught being anything other than dull.

Lager will be bottled soon to free up space in the fridge for the English bitter to cold condition. Bitter had a hot spell when my mate forgot to undo the jacket that he put on the fermenter overnight before going to work in the morning (couldn't make that sound any less confusing). Result being for a day or two it was sitting up around 29*c, which ended up giving it a really nice flavour, though part of the could have been the 50g of Goldings I put in, recipe called for 45 and I still haven't got a decent set of scales.

Good temp control, rack and CC for the lager really did wonders, it tastes good straight out of the cube, no off flavours at all. First lager should end up being a great success. Lovely hoppy flavour.

[Fifey]

Real ale kit @ 15L experiment was a success, needs more hops though. I was thinking about doing the same thing with a Cascade draught kit, but with some spec grains and hops to improve the flavour, as I can't imagine the Cascade draught being anything other than dull. Got it on special.

Lager will be bottled soon to free up space in the fridge for the English bitter to cold condition. Bitter had a hot spell when my mate forgot to undo the jacket that he put on the fermenter overnight before going to work in the morning (couldn't make that sound any less confusing). Result being for a day or two it was sitting up around 29*c, which ended up giving it a really nice flavour, though part of the could have been the 50g of Goldings I put in, recipe called for 45 and I still haven't got a decent set of scales.

Good temp control, rack and CC for the lager really did wonders, it tastes good straight out of the cube, no off flavours at all. First lager should end up being a great success. Lovely hoppy flavour.