ADVICE RE A DARK ALE.

[dab123]

With much help from the members my first brew was passable & the second one is nearing completion and I am expecting great results with this one.
However, I have decided that my next one will be Dark ale ( as I am a lover of traditional brown & black beer ) anyway I looked up Geoff & olivers brew pages and found olivers No 13 coopers dark ale, the coopers cans for this are readily available in the local super market , but not the mentioned Liquid Amber said to contain dextrose,light malt & dark malt, nor does it say what quantity was used ? so folks are these the only items required and just follow the instructions on the can ?.
P.S , I intend to make up a double batch in the one 60 ltr fermenter, so do I just double up on everything . allso Olivers notes stated that from start to bottled time was 42 days ? have I miss read or is that normal .
Any help appreciated .

[thehipone]

Hi,

Well, if you're willing to be a little flexible you could go with the Coopers kit plus the Coopers Brew Enhancer 2, which has a mix of light malt, dextrose and maltodextrin. If you're starting with a dark beer kit like the old ale or stout, a small amount of dark malt probably wont affect the flavor drastically. If you're into the big malt-driven beers, then maybe a pack of 500g light malt and 1 kg of dextrose plus the kit, (double to 1kg malt/2kg dex for your 60L batch).
I have seen the 500g light malt and the BE 2 in the Coles here, I assume they are available at your local supermarket.

It wouldnt hurt to try to find a homebrew shop in your area though, your brewing world expands greatly when you can start adding specialty grains, hops and different malts, not to mention the massive variety of kits that you get compared to the supermarket.

Best of luck.

[dab123]

Hi Hipone, Thanks for that, there is a local brew shop, so will pay them a visit, as I have'nt seen the enhancer in Coles here. sounds to me that the liquid amber that was mentioned is realy a mix of the light and dark malts plus dextrose, so provided that I get the enhancer , shall go as you suggested, that is 2cans of coopers old dark ale, with the double up quantitys for a 60 ltr batch. as my previous brews have been 30 ltrs
I am assuming that there are no points to watch with a 60 ?
all the best . dab.

[thehipone]

I've never actually made a 60L batch, but since youre not boiling the wort, then there shouldnt be any special concerns.
Is the actual volume of your batch going to be double the usual 23L?

For a 46L batch, yeah, 2 cans plus a couple kg of dextrose/malt plus a bit of maltodextrin for body should be alright. If the volume will be different you can use this calculator:

http://www.brewcraft.com.au/wa.asp?idWebPage=9616&idDetails=120

to get a ballpark idea of the alcohol/body of the brew and fiddle with the recipe a bit to get something that looks good to you.

[Oliver]

Hi dab123,

The guys are right. The brew enhancer was just from a local brewshop in Adelaide. Your local will probably have a bag with a similar mix. Failing that, use a brew enhancer from Cooper's, as suggested, although this probably won't have dark malt in it as the one I used did.

And yes, you did read the time between starting and bottling. See the brewing notes, reproduced below. Note that the brew was made in a fermenter slightly smaller than the usual 23-litre/30-longneck/60-stubby model, so you might want to reduce the volume slightly to concentrate the flavors.

Cheers,

Oliver

Brewing notes for Oliver's No.13 Cooper's Dark Ale
Started 6.8.97 Bottled 19.9.97
This was part of an experiment hatched by Oliver and Geoff over homebrew. We theorised that the reason that Cooper's made such excellent beer was because of the water in Adelaide (which in the past has been so bad that ships have refused to take it on). So, Oliver set out to test the theory. He packed Geoff's Black Fermenter (which brews 27 bottles instead of the usual 30) and drove to Adelaide from Melbourne, via Sydney. He purchased the ingredients for the brew in Adelaide, made the beer in his parent's kitchen and left it to ferment, with the yeast from a Cooper's Dark Ale stubby, in their cellar. Oliver knew that he was returning to Adelaide the next month, and bottled the beer then, loaded it in his car and took it back to Geelong.

[dab123]

Hi guys and thanks for the info,
I may have been a bit miss leading when I said a 60 ltr batch
although it is a 60 lt fermenter I only intend to do 46 batch, that is 2 x23
coopers kits.
I got a little confused at first with some directions such as Dont use sugar
only use Dextrose, then dont use dextrose only malt extract dried or liquid
then the Maltodextrin , but am now getting the picture o.k .
Finaly just to show that I am still a novice , if useing 2 cans for a double
quantity do I throw in both lots of yeast ? or swap the supplied packets
for the Safale ones .
cheers.

[Gough]

Dab,

Personally I would use the Safale rather than the kit yeasts but it is up to you. Either way, it is worth throwing in 2 yeast sachets if you are doubling the quantity. You may be able to get away with one, but a higher yeast pitching rate will give you a faster start to your ferment, minimising the potential for bugs and also maximising the chances of your yeast being able to work its way through a big wort without running out of steam early. In general the maltier, higher gravity and greater the quanitity of your beers the more yeast you need. It is better (within reason) to have more yeast rather than less...

Shawn.

[wombat]

instead of spending $10 or so on 2 sachets of safale yeast, try just one sachet of safale yeast and making a yeast starter out of a bottle (750ml) of cooper's dark ale. you'd have to prepare that in advance about 24-48hrs but it should be good.

for the liquid amber kit, you could just put together (measurements for a 22.5L batch) 500g Dark Liquid Malt, 500g Light Liquid Malt, 500g Dextrose, 250g Maltodextrin.

however, if you are feeling really adventurous, you could knock out the dextrose and substitute it with your favourite malt powder or liquid type. or, you could even substitute just some of the dextrose, say 150-250g of it and use a bit of crystal grain. maybe that's getting a little hectic though...

remember, that malt powder does not use the same measurements as malt extract liquid:

malt powder contains roughly 1.9% alcohol per kg.
malt extract liquid contains about 1.6% alcohol per kg.
dextrose contains 1.8% alcohol per kg.

the maltodextrin is there to give your beer a bit more body and head retention only if you are using that 500g dextrose configuration. you could always add a little to an all malt though if you like it full.

personally, if i were to make the brew, i would do the following:
(1.7kg) 1 can of Cooper's Dark Ale - i'd keep the yeast and use it too
(500g) Dark Malt Extract Liquid
(500g) Light Malt Extract Liquid
(250g) Maltodextrin
(250g) Crystal Grain
Yeast starter made from 1 x 750ml bottle of cooper's dark ale (2 if you are making double. lots of yeast is good if it's good yeast). if you are using double the ingredients though, put in the 2 x 750ml starters, but only put in one of the two yeast sachets that come with the can kit.

now, i'd boil in some golden cluster, goldings or fuggles hops for about 5 mins with some of the malt to balance out that huge amount of sweet wort. i'd use 12-15g of golden cluster and boil for about 5mins with a litre of water and 250g of malt extract.

with the grain, i'd steep it (65-66deg C constant temp) for a little bit in a litre of water and then sparge (with water that is about 75deg C). i know you don't have to do that with crystal grains but it just really seems to be a nice thing to do with darker ales to bring out some of that roast toffee/nut character. i'd just use a stocking leg to sparge my grains cause i'm cheap.

now i don't think that would make a beer quite like oliver and geoff's no 13 but it would be a nice beer nontheless. maybe i'd even add 50g (50g not 500g this stuff is powerful) of chocolate malt to the crystal grain mix to give it a bit of complex charm.

mmm... that sounds like a nice beer. i think i'll make it now

cheers
-wombat

[dab123]

OK Gough & Wombat, have taken all you said onboard, to be honest I went ahead with this about 4 hours ago, I should have waited of course to see if any tips had been posted, but being over eager to get it under way ,well you know the story , but your suggestions will be fully considered I assure you when I analyse the final results of this brew .
Some of wombats suggestions where a bit over my head , in fact a couple of the items where unknown to me , you are obviously more experienced at this than I, roughly speaking it was more or less as Gough said.
I did use the yeasts that came with the kits, & put both in .
the mix was 2 cans coopers old dark ale, 1kilo dried light malt, 2kilo of coopers dextrose and 1 sachet of finishing hops, & topped up to 46 litres.
As of yet there is no movement. Question :- will it take longer to start fermenting because its a double quantity ?
Thanks lads.

[Matty]

It wouldn't take any longer to start fermenting

[Gough]

Dab,

Sounds fine. Should be the same, possibly quicker.

Best of luck,

Shawn.

[Guest]

yep sounds good to me. should be about 5.4% alcohol too. nice balance, should be a nice beer. which hops did you go with?
dehydtrated yeast sometimes takes a little bit to get going so don't worry - it'll move

cheers
-wombat

[dab123]

After my last post, I checked the brew in question , and throughout the following day, ALAS NO MOVEMENT as my previose brews had started within a few hours, I began to panic, here I was with 46 litres threatening to die on me, i checked for leaks but all seemed ok , it was by then late evening with no shops open & i had no spare ingredients to try and improvise with, by now I was nearing my wits end, in desperation i went through the pantry looking for inspiration ( & my wife threatening to leave home), all I could find was a canister containing about a kilo of brown sugar that had settled into a solid lump, so with the speed of a surgeon in a emergency operation, I boiled it up in about 2litres of water and added the remains of an old satchet of yeast ( half of which I used in a cider experiment). then I opened up the fermenter chucked the lot in ,gave it a bloody good stir and quickly resealed it.
Now beleive me this is true, within 10 minutes it began to go berserk, bubbling away like mad allmost continuouslyand is still at it as I write.
The question is have I stuffed it up , or performed CPR ? can I look forward to a mess or a miracle ?
As i'm not the praying kind I will just keep my fingers crossed.
by the way Wombat the hops used where Hallertau
dab123.

[Oliver]

Hi dab123,

Should be fine. Just a little stronger than it otherwise would have.

The fact that fermentation appeared to start within 10 minutes indicates to me that perhaps there was an air leak, and removing the lid and refitting it when you put the extra sugar in fixed the leak. It's pretty doubtful that the extra yeast would have caused it to go berserk within 10 minutes.

When you opened the fermenter to add the extra sugar was there any evidence of foam on the top that may have indicated fermentation was taking place?

Cheers,

Oliver

[Matty]

This is one reason why I use a hydrometer, if you take a sample and get a lower reading (after a few days) than when you first put it on then it has started brewing and then you it's just an air leak or temp.

Matty

[dab123]

Yes Oliver, when I opened the fermenter up, there was a slush on top
admittedly I did'nt realise at the time that it signified that ferment had started, but now you mentioned it , should have been obvious I reckon.
certainly must have been a leak that got fixed at the resealing, anyway its still going strong, & glad to hear that the final outcome should not be affected .
also Matty, the only hydrometer reading taken was the original one,so agreed had I taken another plus the scum forming, it should have told me that a leak was present , Ah ! well we live & learn.
Thanks lads.
dab.