Hops

[Shifter]

Thinking of doing a hop cleaner - I have some POR and Amarillo left over. Would 40 g of POR at 30 mins and 20g of Amarillo at 20 mins and 20 g of Amarillo at 10 mins be OK with 3 kg of Coopers LME light, and may be 300g of crystal (120) and US-05 yeast.

What do you reckon to the hop mixture? Comments please.

Shifter

[Tourist]

Too bitter - 60 IBU in a 23L batch, according to my software.

The POR would account for about 40IBU alone. I reckon you might want about 30IBU max for a hoppy pale ale or bitter style.

Two options that I would suggest:

1. Halve the POR amount and boil for 60 min, add 40gm amarillo for 5 mins. (28 IBU). But this doesn't clear out the left over POR.

2. Boil 40gm POR for 20 mins only. 40gm amarillo for 5 mins (32IBU). I would only suggest doing this if the POR is quite fresh, but if you're having a clean-out, I doubt it is.

Anyway, 40gm of POR for 60 min in a 4% beer will be crazy bitter (and not in a good way).

Good luck with it.

[billybushcook]

I think Tourist is all over it with option # 1.
But....
Are the Por Flowers or pellets??
Assuming they are Flowers with AA% of around 9.6% I would go for 25g @ 60.
This is one hop schedule I do regularily in pale Ales with a 15 - 20g addition of Amarillo @ 5 Mins for IBU around 28 - 30 depending on your gravity in the boil.

With the Crystal in there, the 5 Min addition could be a little higher.

Cheers, Mick.

[Shifter]

Thanks for the detailed response - they are pellets of unknown date, I think they are dead, not a nice green colour, rather brown. They have been lurking in my box and not in my fridge. The Amarillo is quite fresh and i have about 50grms, I have alos found some Centennial which is also pretty fresh. Any ideas?

[Tourist]

Brown hops should not go into beer under normal circumstances. Throw them out - NOW!

Centennial and Amarillo will contribute to a nice APA-style beer and you can probably substitute 1-1 with the POR as per option #1 above. Seriously, using stale ingredients (hops, grain, yeast) will not reward you with a good beverage. Fresh is best.

[billybushcook]

Yep,
you can't make Plum jam out of Pig sh#t!!

Mick.

[Bum]

I reckon you might want about 30IBU max for a hoppy pale ale or bitter style.

30IBU barely squeaks into spec for an APA. Absolute lowest IBU value for style.

[Shifter]

The POR is now compost!
How about 20g centennial for 30mins, 40g amarillo for 20 mins and 40g Amarillo for 10 mins. 30 min boil with about 500 g of LME and the steeped crystal wort??

[Tourist]

I reckon you might want about 30IBU max for a hoppy pale ale or bitter style.

30IBU barely squeaks into spec for an APA. Absolute lowest IBU value for style.

Absolutely. Which is why I didn't say anything about "American" - I think I even removed the word. Moreso from the fact that this guy is only going to end up with a beer of about 4% alc (at 23L). My reference to "max" was really based on the gravity that I would think desirable for this brew, but should not be used as a general rule.

Shifter - my general advice is to brew lots. Understand your ingredients an what they do. Take advice as advice, not rules. Brew what you like to drink. Don't get too involved in the technicalities (just yet).

How about 20g centennial for 30mins, 40g amarillo for 20 mins and 40g Amarillo for 10 mins. 30 min boil with about 500 g of LME and the steeped crystal wort??

That would be up over 50IBU. Remove the 20 min Amarillo addition and you're in the 30IBU ballpark.

Do you have some brewing software, or a method for calculating your bitterness? Do you hate your tastebuds?

[Bum]

Absolutely. Which is why I didn't say anything about "American" - I think I even removed the word.

Mate, his beer is base, crystal and late US hops. You can remove all the qualifiers you like - APA is still the closest fit to what he's making and you're wrong. You're also wrong giving him numbers for his beer without knowing AA%, age of hops and boil/batch volume. He clearly doesn't understand why this is might be an issue so you should not be glossing over this matter and he'd do well to apply the proverbial grain of salt to nearly everything you've said until you start asking questions before you start giving answers.

Shifter, if you are chasing something vaguely American (and your hop selection does make it look like that's where your tastes might lie) don't remove the 20 min addition - reduce the early bittering addition instead - it'll make the taste buds that Tourist is claiming to save sing! He might have a point about your gravity though (assuming a batch size around the 20/23L mark) - if you like it hoppy up your extract amounts rather than reducing your hopping rates. Throw up all the details you have for the hops and intended brew (boil size/batch size/etc) and someone will run the figures for you and you can work out how to swing it closer to your tastes from there.

[Tourist]

stuff

Mate, his beer is base, crystal and late US hops.

Thanks - I've been been brewing a while.

You can remove all the qualifiers you like - APA is still the closest fit to what he's making and you're wrong.

Except for BJCP Substyle 8.B - Special/Best/Premium Bitter. Before you start banging on about the hops, the style guidelines make specific references to US hops as appropriate under the Aroma, Flavour and Ingredients subheadings. IBU= 25-40; ABV= 3.8-4.6%. I'll let you compare that with the APA guidelines, as you obviously know them well.

You're also wrong giving him numbers for his beer without knowing AA%, age of hops and boil/batch volume.

OK, say he gives you these details and you punch it into your software, you can come up with a number - it's still a theoretical number that may/may not be reflected in the beer. Man, If this guy wanted to brew an award-winning beer, then maybe these things would be more important, but this is a cupboard-cleaner FFS!

He clearly doesn't understand why this is might be an issue so you should not be glossing over this matter and he'd do well to apply the proverbial grain of salt to nearly everything you've said until you start asking questions before you start giving answers.

I'm happy to answer questions from the guy. I think back to my early brewing days and these sorts of technicalities turned me right off. Wasn't until I got stuck into it that I started to learn, improve, and make good beer (when I say "good", I mean I like it, other brewers like it and beer judges tend to like it). I'm just trying to help in a way that I would have like to have been helped - is that "wrong"?

Shifter, if you are chasing something vaguely American (and your hop selection does make it look like that's where your tastes might lie) don't remove the 20 min addition - reduce the early bittering addition instead - it'll make the taste buds that Tourist is claiming to save sing! He might have a point about your gravity though (assuming a batch size around the 20/23L mark) - if you like it hoppy up your extract amounts rather than reducing your hopping rates. Throw up all the details you have for the hops and intended brew (boil size/batch size/etc) and someone will run the figures for you and you can work out how to swing it closer to your tastes from there.

I think this would make a beer that is out of balance, but if that's the way you like it, go crazy.

Bum - honestly mate, I enjoy your straight-up style, but I'm really just trying to help. I don't think it's cool to start with all the "you're wrong" about a hobby that is pretty damn subjective. I respect your opinion, but it sucks to have to defend good intentions. Peace.

[matr]

Brown hops should not go into beer under normal circumstances. Throw them out - NOW!

Unless you are brewing a lambic.. But that's not necessarily "normal" circumstances...

[Tourist]

Unless you are brewing a lambic.. But that's not necessarily "normal" circumstances...

Which is what I was getting at.

[Bum]

I'll ignore most of that in the spirit of keeping things civil you've ended on but I would like to address this (with apologies to Shifter - this will have nothing to do with your recipe):

Before you start banging on about the hops

I'd be very surprised if his malt bill and yeast choice made this beer more likely to be 8B than 10A (most likely) as you imply. Clutching at straws, mate. He might very well prefer an 8B, of course.

But touching on the bitterness of the suggested beer again for a moment, it is my feeling that a beer brewed with LME with an unknown fermentability (usually accepted as being somewhat low, however) and a significant proportion of crystal is more than enough to support 30IBU - might even come across as somewhat cloying to some palates. And that is completely ignoring the matter of yeast management. This is the reason I brought it up in the first place.

[Tourist]

Clutching at straws, mate.

Not sure how I'm clutching at straws when each of the stated parameters of 8B are most likely to be met with the provided recipe, once the hopping is adjusted. Alternatively, 10A is undershot on Alc % (even more so if you factor in the possibility of lower attenuation) and probably overshot on IBU.

Another point that might be relevant is that these are not the freshest hops in the world - do you really want a big flavour/aroma of sub-standard or stale hops in your hop-proud APA? It's not just the AA% that suffers with old hops.

BJCP styles aside - this is a relatively low gravity beer at the stated malt bill and, like all beers, should have balance - whether you shoot for 30 IBU or 50+, you're going to be on the hops-end of the see-saw. It would be up to your tastes to determine where you want to be and it's different for everyone.

Backing away.....

[Shifter]

Gentlemen,

Please some restraint, I had no intentions of starting WW3. Thanks you for your valuable comments in any event.

I have been brewing for years, kits with a few adjuncts and basic hop varieties (fuggles & goldings) racked in to "beershperes" This might give you a clue that I am a natralised POM.
Just previous to Xmas my interest was sparked again and I bought some additons to my brewery kit, namely a couple of 19 ltr kegs and a CO2 cylinder with beer gun. Brewing life and quality instantly changed. Just need a chest freezer now and life will be even sweeter.

I do not know a great deal about the technicality of brewing especially Hops, hence my questions. I have Palmers book, a great investment and a great deal better then my old bible from Ken Shales of Boozledon fame - perhaps I'm showing my age here?!

However, after some thought and from what I have read I put this brew together:-

3 kg of Coopers LME (light)
05 kg dextrose (250g used)
20g Centennial at 30 mins
40g of Amerarillo at 20 mins
40g of Amerilllo at 10 mins

Steeped 200g of crystal (120) for 30 mins at 65 DegC in 1 ltr of water.
Added this wort to make up 5ltrs for boiling 500g of LME with the above hop additions. Boil was for 30 mins.
Following this boil the SG of the wort was checked and seen to be 1040.
Once cooled this wort was added to the fermenter with the remainder of the LME and 250g of Dextrose to make up 22 ltrs. SG checked and found to be about 1046, strong enough for me with ABV of 4.9% ish!

This recipe, or something like it was on another forum or maybe from a book. Slight changes but plagerised, I admit!

Smelt really good whilst boiling and smellt great as it was placed in to the Ferm vessel. Temp checked and yeast pitched at about 20 Deg C (US - 05 yeast)

Time will tell as to how it turns out, but for me I like a really tasty hoppy beer in the American amber or Pale style. Of course I love true English Bitter, Sam Smiths in particular and since living down here of course larger comes to the fore. Truely I just love BEER!

Thanks for your inputs thus far. Please let me have any commnets on the above with any problems that you see.

Regards,

Graham, Hobart.

[Bum]

Sorry for my presumption in regards to your experience, Shifter.

That one does look like it will be especially bitter (and certainly outside whatever style one might wish to name it in one way or the other) but I've made similarly spec'ed beers in the past and enjoyed them. If you're after an aggressive and hoppy beer but still with a small amount of supporting body then I reckon you'll be pretty happy - but, uh, comp judges probably wouldn't.

Best of luck with it.

[Shifter]

Bum,

No offence taken at all. It is nice to have someone with obvious technical brewing skills comment. And that's how information is passed on.

Not in to competition at all. I brew for me, only.

Thanks again,

Graham.

[Bum]

It is nice to have someone with obvious technical brewing skills comment. And that's how information is passed on.

Technical brewer? Me? Not if I can help it - but I have had some generous technical brewers pass on plenty of guidance and info my way.

[rotten]

Gday shifter.
Your brew looks fine mate. Good idea to add the dex, you could have added that 500 gm IMHO.
Let us now how it turns out!
Cheers