Problem with a Pilsner

[Trizza]

I put down my first all-extract brew yesterday, and now I'm wondering if it's not going to be bitter enough. When I went to G&G to get the Saaz for the brew, it had an alpha acid content of 2.5%.

3.0 Kg Light Liquid Malt Extract
500g Light Dried Malt Extract
250g Cara Munich Malt
250g Light Crystal Malt
80g Saaz Hop Pellets (AA - 2.5%) @ 60 minutes ~ 21 IUB
20g Saaz Hop Pellets (AA - 2.5%) @ 30 minutes ~ 4 IUB
20g Saaz Hop Pellets (AA - 2.5%) @ 15 minutes ~ 3 IUB
20g Saaz Hop Pellets (AA - 2.5%) @ 5 minutes ~ 1 IUB
20g Saaz Hop Pellets (AA - 2.5%) @ Dry hop into secondary
Yeast Saflager 34/70

Total IUBs came out to only 29. I'm new to this whole balance concept, but when I tasted the hydrometer it was not very bitter, and now I'm wondering if I've ruined my beer, by not making it bitter enough. It's fermenting well enough and the OG was 1066.

Is there anything I can do, should I be worried, or am I just overreacting to this minor setback.

Trizza.

[rwh]

http://www.bjcp.org/styles04/Category2.html

[lethaldog]

Why is it ruined, it will still be a nice beer but just might not be as bitter as you wanted, still beer though

[gibbocore]

and damned strong beer at that!

[Aussie Claret]

Ok I ran this through beer smith and I got very different results to you, I based the recipe on a 23 litre batch. To calculate the IBU's correctly you really needed to check the OG before adding any hops at start of boil. I'm guessing if you have a FG of 1.066 (which is very high) then you didn't end up with a 23litre batch. My IBU figure is around 40 based on a 23 litre batch and if it doesn't taste very bitter it could be due to the caramunich crystal malts (both of which are crystal malts so thats 500g, a little too high) which will give your beer a sweeter profile. To get a OG of 1.066 you would have ended up with 17.5litres; Is this right? If so then you're anticipated gravity pre-boil would have been 1.052 (based on a 60minute boil) and your expected IBU's would then be 50.4 (which is quite bitter), something seems to be a miss, let us know exactly what you did in order and when you added the malt extract.
This is just an estimate as I don't have all the specifics of your system nor your method. By the way what program did you use to check the beer profile? Sorry edit, why did you use caramunich in a pilsner? It's not really the type of grain to add to a pilsner and will make the beer alot darker, more flavour and maltier than the usual pilsner.
Cheers AC

Type: All Grain
Date: 4/07/2007
Batch Size: 23.00 L

Boil Size: 28.53 L Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: My Equipment

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
0.50 kg Light Dry Extract (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract 12.5 %
3.00 kg Pale Extract Morgans (5.0 EBC) Extract 75.0 %
0.25 kg Caramunich I (Weyermann) (100.5 EBC) Grain 6.3 %
0.25 kg Crystal Malt - 60L (Thomas Fawcett) (118.2 EBC) Grain 6.3 %
80.00 gm Saaz [2.50%] (60 min) Hops 28.6 IBU
20.00 gm Saaz [2.50%] (30 min) Hops 5.5 IBU
20.00 gm Saaz [2.50%] (15 min) Hops 3.5 IBU
20.00 gm Saaz [2.5%] (5 min) Hops 1.4 IBU
1 Pkgs Saflager (DCL Yeast #W34/70) Yeast-Lager



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.050 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.010 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.015 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.005 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.6 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.6 %
Bitterness: 39.0 IBU Calories: 90 cal/l
Est Color: 18.2 EBC Color: Color


Mash Profile

Mash Name: My Mash Total Grain Weight: 0.50 kg
Sparge Water: 30.03 L Grain Temperature: 22.2 C
Sparge Temperature: 75.6 C TunTemperature: 22.2 C
Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE Mash PH: 5.4 PH




Mash Notes:
Carbonation and Storage

[lethaldog]

mmmmmm 18.2 for a pilsner, Thats about 10 ebc ( correct me if im wrong) to much for a pilsner, bitterness is about right though

[OldBugman]

wrong % for the 5min addition, means SFA though.

[Trizza]

It was a 23L batch. I got an OG of 1066. This was expected. It could be possible a mistake was made, but unlikely.

I tried to take gravity reading for the boiling wort, but the casing for my hydrometer melted.

I had the idea for the caramunich grains from the G&G website. i knew the color was too dark, that didn't worry me too much.

Process:
1, Steeped grains at 64-68 degrees for 30 minutes
2, Sparged grains and rinsed them
3, Added malt extracts, and brought to boil.
4, Pot was very full, so waited till volume had decreased to avoid boil over.
5, Added bittering hops - still had minor boil-over
6, Added rest of hops as usual
7, Flameout
8, Cooled wort in ice well
9, Added to fermenter
10, Topped up with water
11, Took hydrometer reading, too cloudy
12, Pitched yeast
13, Read hydrometer jar next morning and it was 1066.

I didn't use a program to check the profile of the beer, just the hops calculator on G&G website, based on a 1100 gravity boil (now I realize it was probably closer to 1120.)

I'm not sure what else could be wrong.

Trizza.

[Aussie Claret]

Tirzza,
1.066 is still too high, I've got no idea based on your ingredients how you managed this. The only way you could have this gravity is if you've ended up with a batch of between 17-18litres.

The pre-boil gravity will be less than your FG of 1.066 so somewhere around the 1.052 not 1100 or 1120 which you quoted, the figures you've used are completely wrong, which has resulted in your theoretical IBU figure being lower than actual.
The gravity pre-boil will be lower than your gravity post boil, as water is boiled off (steam) the gravity increases as volume decreases. The gravity pre-boil is very important when calculating the IBU's sorry to here that you didn't confirm the reading, as a suggestion in future take a sample in a heat proof container and let it cool before checking the gravity (a refractometer comes in very handy for this).

You are using wrong figures in the G&G tool; the higher the gravity pre-boil will result in less hop extraction utilisation, hence why you are getting the wrong IBUs.

You said you worked on a 23litre batch, so what was your preboil volume and post boil volume, did you end up with 23 litres (which I suspect is actually 17litres) or start with 23litres?

Sorry last point you need to check the OG before pitching the yeast not after 12 hours.

I can assure you your bitterness will be alot more than you are expecting, perhaps the large quantity of crytal malts you have used (adding sweetness) will help to counteract the bitterness.

I'm happy for you to PM and we can discuss over the phone if you need any help in future recipe formulations.

AC

[Trizza]

Tirzza,
1.066 is still too high, I've got no idea based on your ingredients how you managed this. The only way you could have this gravity is if you've ended up with a batch of between 17-18litres.

The pre-boil gravity will be less than your FG of 1.066 so somewhere around the 1.052 not 1100 or 1120 which you quoted, the figures you've used are completely wrong, which has resulted in your theoretical IBU figure being lower than actual.
The gravity pre-boil will be lower than your gravity post boil, as water is boiled off (steam) the gravity increases as volume decreases. The gravity pre-boil is very important when calculating the IBU's sorry to here that you didn't confirm the reading, as a suggestion in future take a sample in a heat proof container and let it cool before checking the gravity (a refractometer comes in very handy for this).

You are using wrong figures in the G&G tool; the higher the gravity pre-boil will result in less hop extraction utilisation, hence why you are getting the wrong IBUs.

You said you worked on a 23litre batch, so what was your preboil volume and post boil volume, did you end up with 23 litres (which I suspect is actually 17litres) or start with 23litres?

Sorry last point you need to check the OG before pitching the yeast not after 12 hours.

I can assure you your bitterness will be alot more than you are expecting, perhaps the large quantity of crytal malts you have used (adding sweetness) will help to counteract the bitterness.

I'm happy for you to PM and we can discuss over the phone if you need any help in future recipe formulations.

AC

Everything is starting to make more sense now.

I now see I was misusing the hops calculator, and when it stated wort gravity, i previously thought that it meant the gravity of all of my malt extracts in the 5-6L of water. Correct me if i'm wrong but it actually means the gravity of everything after topping up with water.

As for the OG of 1066, I could of misread the hydrometer and been 10 points off at 1056. I added the yeast after taking this reading, so I assumed that it wasn't going to ferment, given no yeast was in the test jar. The brewcraft SG estimator has 1056 for the stated ingredients at the 23L volume.

One thing that still confuses me is the "boil volume" which in this brew ranged between 5L-7L (hence the boil-over). After all malt extracts had been added to the pot, it came up to around 7L, and by the end of the boil having lost several liters through steam, it had a final volume of 5L.

And I did end up with 23L, all of my brews are that volume.

Trizza.

[Aussie Claret]

Hi Trizza,
Now it's making sense, ok so you started with a boil volume of 7 litres; I had assumed that you were doing a fill volume boil which is common practice.

Ok if you had only 7litres the gravity would be very high and your figures are probably reasonably accurate with a preboil gravity of around 1.110 or 1.1120; but at this high gravity you will have poor hop utilisation and will have quite a reduced bitterness.

For future reference you have two options to improve hop utilisation, less hops but equal or more bitterness, so cost effective.

1. Prepare you wort so that you start with 7litres at a gravity around 1.040 and add you hops accordingly, then at the end add the remaining malt extract.
2. The method I prefer which is a full volume boil (which ensures that all the wort is boiled and any nasties killed. Prepare your wort and add all extract, depending upon your batch; size lets say for ease 20litres, add sufficiently extra water to allow for evapouration and loss to trub etc. so you might start with a boil volume of 25litres, add the hops at the required times. The only thing is you need a big pot.

Boil volume to answer your question is the volume of water before boiling with the extract already added. In your case 7litres. Your first paragraph is correct, but I wouldn't do it that way again as you will be using a lot of hops to achieve the IBU's you require, simply as stated add about 700g of dry malt to you pan and top up to 7litres whiuch will give you roughly 7l @ 1.040, boil this with the hops then add the remaining extract at the end, then dump into you fermenter and top up with water, or do as per point 2 and do the full volume boil.

Cheers
AC

[Trizza]

I understand fully now.

Is there any benefit from boiling all of the malt extracts? If not I'll just boil up enough to get a gravity around 1040. This way the hop utilization will be higher and I'll have no worries with my next mini-mast/extract brew.

I'll have to start looking at a big pot, it'll come in handy when I start AG.

Thanks a bundle, AC.

Trizza.

[Pale_Ale]

Is there any benefit from boiling all of the malt extracts? If not I'll just boil up enough to get a gravity around 1040. This way the hop utilization will be higher and I'll have no worries with my next mini-mast/extract brew.

Not really any benefit in boiling the malt, other than to sterilise in the case of an opened bag of LDME. Depending on the length of the boil ythe malt will become darker too.

In general you can get a decent indication of IBUs if you get your boil volume to the same SG as your resulting full volume.

[Trizza]

I racked this brew yesterday, after 14 days in primary. There was still considerable activity through the airlock prior to racking. As you might expect there was an immense trub, nearly over the tap hole.

I had a taste of the brew, and now I'm concerned that it might not be bitter enough, and pondered if I should attempt to make it bitterer, by boiling up some hops and adding them to the fermenter.

Given the poor hop utilization, I'm not sure that this is going to be the best brew now.

Any thoughts if I should attempt to make this brew more bitter?

Trizza.

[Aussie Claret]

You could boil up some malt and hops and blend which will add bitterness, make up a couple of litres of wort at about 1.040 and add 20-30g of Saaz boil for an hour cool then add to your original batch.
AC

[Trough Lolly]

Further to AC's excellent advice, I'd be tempted to do a small bittering boil as described, but use some Northern Brewer instead of Saaz for bittering - do a full 1 hour boil to knock out most of the Northern Brewer's aroma and flavour profile, but you'll find that the higher alpha acid content of NB is better suited to just bittering a beer. Saaz is an excellent classic european hop but it's alpha acid content is so low that it makes for a very inefficient bittering hop. Anyway, just thought I'd chuck that in!!

Cheers,
TL

[Trizza]

Thanks guys, I'll give the NB a go.

I'll use 15g of 9.1%AA in a 3L boil with 400g LDME. This should give me about 15 more IUBs, to add to the amount that is already in there.

Only problem is that I have another brew in my other fermenter and cant rack the brew, so it's going to need a long time to ensure everything has fermented out.

Trizza.

[OldBugman]

Also, with a high OG you really need to up the IBU to counter it.

generally if you follow the BJCP guidelines and are up the top end of the specified gravity you should be aiming for the top end of the IBU.