Boiling all?

[gazpachos0up]

I read somewhere that if you boil all you ingredients together (can contents and malt extracts etc) it makes your basic brew taste a little better...
When you steep grain to add to brew could you add this liquid to the boil, just the liquid not the grains, i know boiling grains can release tannins into the the wort.

[Dogger Dan]

Yes, you are right.

Dogger

[rwh]

Except don't boil the kit, add it at flameout. Otherwise you'll be boiling away any hop flavour/aroma that the kit manufacturer may have managed to get into the can.

[Dogger Dan]

I used to boil the kit too, if there is any hop aroma in there I have found it minimal. You can always dry hop

Dogger

[gazpachos0up]

so is it okay to add everything including steeped grain water, this wont make it taste strange?

[Iron-Haggis]

As long as you have strained the grains it is fine.

[lethaldog]

Some kits dont boil well but most are fine, i used to boil 90% of my kits with other ingredients and they worked out great

[chris.]

I believe a 20min boil, at the highest volume possible, will be beneficial. I'd personally wouldn't want to go much longer as you may risk darkening the wort.
& yes boil the grain runoff with the kit

[Pale_Ale]

Some of the more expensive kits contain hop flavour and aroma so I won't be boiling any Thomas Coopers Premium Selection kits or similar anytime soon.

[Trough Lolly]

gazpachos0up,

With today's kits (as opposed to unhopped liquid or dry malt extract) there's nothing to be gained by boiling them. The manufacturer already did that when they added the hop bittering, flavour and aroma notes at the factory.

All that you do, by adding the kit to the boil, is raising the boil gravity which in turn lowers the hop extraction efficiency - ie, you need more hops to impart the desired bitterness, flavour, aroma to the final product. And as rwh noted, the volatile hop flavour and aroma compounds readily boil off so unless you don't like what Coopers / Muntons etc did, leave the kit out of the boil step.
By all means, steep some grain and use the sweet liquor in a small volume boil, of at least 20 minutes duration, with some hops added for balance and you can toss that and the kit in a fermenter - fill with cold water, pitch yeast and seal.
Eventually you might want to broaden your horizon and do a small / mini / partial mash where you steep some base malt in a similar volume of water, at the same(ish) temp for around an hour - and boil that grain free extract liquor with some hops. Before you know it, you'll be wondering what all the fuss was about re all grain beer!

Cheers,
TL

[chris.]

gazpachos0up,

With today's kits (as opposed to unhopped liquid or dry malt extract) there's nothing to be gained by boiling them. The manufacturer already did that when they added the hop bittering, flavour and aroma notes at the factory.

My memory is a little sketchy on all the details but I recall a recent Craftbrewer Radio episode featuring John Palmer in which they researched this. IIRC most malt extracts don't have the break removed. & the bittering is just an addition of hop extract (ie. no boil).
???

[Trough Lolly]

My memory is a little sketchy on all the details but I recall a recent Craftbrewer Radio episode featuring John Palmer in which they researched this. IIRC most malt extracts don't have the break removed. & the bittering is just an addition of hop extract (ie. no boil).
???

Hi Chris,
I didn't hear the episode but I don't dispute that either may occur - regardless of how the hop essences are added - isohop versus solids eg pellets, plugs, flowers etc, the hop oils and compounds are volatile and the flavouring and aroma notes will dissipate within a boil - regardless of their origin.

As for the break, I rarely got much of a hot or cold break when I boiled a kit many years ago - nowhere near as much as all grain anyway. Many of the large wort kits have break in them; some fresh wort kits have a visible layer in the container, whereas others tend to remove that when they package the wort. I like having break material in the fermenter - it's a bugger to remove when you use a counterflow chiller, but it's also a valuable nutrient source for the yeast - but the pros and cons of break material is a separate debate!

Regardless of the presence, or not, of break matter, the issue is more of boiling off the valuable hop aroma and flavour compounds and if you want to do that, they you'd be better off saving your money and brewing with cheaper tubs of malt extract than buying the ready made kits that cost considerably more.

Cheers,
TL

[Dogger Dan]

Chris.

You are correct sir, the episode was regarding the "Kit Twang" if I remember right

Dogger

[chris.]

Yeah that was the one Dogger.

regardless of how the hop essences are added - isohop versus solids eg pellets, plugs, flowers etc, the hop oils and compounds are volatile and the flavouring and aroma notes will dissipate within a boil - regardless of their origin.

I'd be very surprised if every kit on the market would have aroma & flavour additions. & I agree that to degree these compounds, if they are there at all, will dissipate. But only to a degree. I've had beers with a single addition boiled for 60min & still had plenty of hop flavour.

As for the break, I rarely got much of a hot or cold break when I boiled a kit many years ago - nowhere near as much as all grain anyway. Many of the large wort kits have break in them; some fresh wort kits have a visible layer in the container, whereas others tend to remove that when they package the wort. I like having break material in the fermenter - it's a bugger to remove when you use a counterflow chiller, but it's also a valuable nutrient source for the yeast - but the pros and cons of break material is a separate debate!.

True that there will not be as much break as an all grain boil. But to compare a tinned kit to a fresh wort kit is a little silly. The whole processing is different.
My previous point was that, from what I've heard, is that tinned kits are not boiled (unlike a fresh wort kit which is) hence there is no (or less) break formation in the production - which I'm lead to believe can cause extract twang.

Regardless of the presence, or not, of break matter, the issue is more of boiling off the valuable hop aroma and flavour compounds and if you want to do that, they you'd be better off saving your money and brewing with cheaper tubs of malt extract than buying the ready made kits that cost considerably more.

Cheers,
TL

I thought the issue was "will a boil make a beer taste any better"?
I agree that you may lose some hop flavour & aroma. But the boil may also have other positive effects such as helping to drop the compounds responsible for extract twang (lipids etc?).
It's a bit of a catch 22 really. But nothing that a fresh hop addition can't fix

[Ed]

I believe a 20min boil, at the highest volume possible, will be beneficial. I'd personally wouldn't want to go much longer as you may risk darkening the wort.

Agreed 100%.

Cheers, Ed

[James L]

what about those kits that have the hops pellets added? (ESB bavarian wheat). Do you still boil them, or chuck them in at flameout? i chucked mine in at flameout, and when it came time to strain into the fermenter, the pellets were still sitting in the bottom of the pot...

the kit didnt come with intructions...

[Kevnlis]

My guess would be...if the kit did not specify to boil or strain it then it should be chucked into the fermentor as is.

In the case of a kit with hop pellets in it I would say they are left there for added flavour/aroma and that would definately be changed by boiling!

[The Carbonator]

I agree with Kevnlis. Kits are not for boiling, IMO.

I dont understand why people want to boil for an hour when doing kits
Kit brews are for when you want a cheap, quick brew.

If you are going to boil, why buy a kit at all?
You may as well do an extract brew with 3kg DME instead.
This will result in a beer that is 500% better than any kit brew.....

[Pale_Ale]

Exactly. There is no point to boiling a kit at all, you kill any hop aroma and flavour in the kit, reduce hop efficiency in the boil, and make it darker.

[mobydick]

Agreed. Though I got it wrong the first few times and boiled the kit, because I too somehow got the message to boil all the malt. Now I add the kit at flameout.