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ryan wrote:

drsmurto wrote:I made it using that kit and i also made it using the Grumpys tins of goop. Key is the hops and the yeast not which brand of goop you use.

yeah but the Coopers draught is only 23 IBU, which is less than that of the original recipe, isn`t it?

Yep....Morgans is 28

what I`m saying is- if you used Coopers draught, by what amount do you increase the Chinook {bittering} to get the original 28 IBU, and would you need to increase the boil time cos of the extra Chinook?
Does that make sense ?

This is a commonly asked and difficult question to answer, due to the number of variables involved...

Lets just say that you want to add another 5 IBU's of bitterness to the beer (and for this, I'll deliberately ignore the perceived bitterness issue).
In order to increase the bitterness, we need to know three things beforehand:
1. The bitterness rating of the hops (expressed as percent alpha acids) - obviously the higher the % A/A, the stronger the hop bittering potential and I'll assume the hops are fresh.
2. The gravity of the wort that we'll boil the hops in - the higher the gravity, the less efficient is the hop bittering potential, and
3. The duration of the boil, eg 15 minutes, 60 minutes etc - the longer the boil, the greater the hop bittering potential (to a point and for AG brewers 60 to 90 minutes is ideal).

Now in this particular case, adding a relatively small amount of additional bitterness with a typically strong alpha acid hop such as Chinook is hard to do accurately and with certainty. I had a play with the Beer Recipator onlineand if you added 1.7kg of pale malt extract to 4 litres of water, you'd have a starting gravity of around 1.132 (and that figure may vary depending on what recipe generator you use and how many points per kilo per litre it calculates for liquid malt extract). So with that sort of gravity, the hop bitterness extraction efficiency isn't going to be all that good, but we only want a small amount of additional bitterness anyway.
To get some sort of bitterness from the hops, I'd recommend a boil of at least 15 minutes duration.
Now, let's say the Chinook is 10% A/A for this example. According to the Beer Recipator website if we had 23 IBU's in the 4 litres of boiling water along with the kit (1.7kg of LME), you would only need to boil 3g of 10% A/A Chinook for 15 minutes to gain 4.7 more IBU's to the beer. This calculation is using the Tinseth method of determining hop utilisation for 15 minutes which is 5.5%... If we added 3g of 10% A/A Chinook and boiled for 30 minutes, we'd gain around 8 IBU's (Tinseth's utilisation for 30 minutes is now 8.5%). The problem here is that Chinook has a strong flavour profile so the perceived bitterness may be much higher.

So, depending on the above variables, you'd need only a few grams of this hop in a boil of at least 15 minutes duration to do the job. Sorry I didn't just pluck a figure but I hope you can see the underlying complexity to your relatively innocent question...

Cheers,
TL

rightyo thanks Trough
no wonder that one stayed in the too hard basket for a while
So the bottom line is- you can use the Coopers draught kit {23 IBU} to replace the Morgans kit {28 IBU} and add about 5 g. Chinook to the original recipe, giving 17g. Chinook for the 15 minute boil. Is that right?
Sorry if it seems complicated-the reason for the q. is Morgans $14.95 v. Coopers $8.50

I hear the coopers real ale has IBUs around 28... you could always use that and save on the brain strain...

I could- but I want the lighter colour.

ryan wrote:rightyo thanks Trough
no wonder that one stayed in the too hard basket for a while
So the bottom line is- you can use the Coopers draught kit {23 IBU} to replace the Morgans kit {28 IBU} and add about 5 g. Chinook to the original recipe, giving 17g. Chinook for the 15 minute boil. Is that right?
Sorry if it seems complicated-the reason for the q. is Morgans $14.95 v. Coopers $8.50

In theory, yes.
But there are more complications to bear in mind!
If you do a boil and add the kit concentrate to the boil, then sure, you'll add bittering IBU's to the wort with the Chinook addition, but at the same time, the boil will knock out some of the heat volatile flavour and aroma compounds that were originally added to the kit at the Coopers brewery. What will happen is the 17g of Chinook will add substantial flavour and aroma compounds to the boil and if you like the Chinook flavour and aroma profile, then fine, but you need to bear in mind that my earlier calculations were working with the same amount of unhopped LME and I didn't mention the effect that the boil has on a kit - which is why I prefer to add hop bitterness to a solution that's had crystal steeped in it and then boiled with hops added, and at flameout, you add the kit to minimise the loss of flavour and aroma compounds present in the hopped concentrate.

Cheers,
TL

Yep, TL, thats what i did. Used the liquid from steeping grain and a small amount of LDME to approx a full ball gravity. I was lucky cos i was able to get grumpys to do all the calcs for me before i was using beersmith.

Trough Lolly wrote:

ryan wrote:rightyo thanks Trough
no wonder that one stayed in the too hard basket for a while
So the bottom line is- you can use the Coopers draught kit {23 IBU} to replace the Morgans kit {28 IBU} and add about 5 g. Chinook to the original recipe, giving 17g. Chinook for the 15 minute boil. Is that right?
Sorry if it seems complicated-the reason for the q. is Morgans $14.95 v. Coopers $8.50

In theory, yes.
But there are more complications to bear in mind!
If you do a boil and add the kit concentrate to the boil, then sure, you'll add bittering IBU's to the wort with the Chinook addition, but at the same time, the boil will knock out some of the heat volatile flavour and aroma compounds that were originally added to the kit at the Coopers brewery.
TL

But I wouldn`t be boiling the Coopers kit! That would be added at the end of the 15 minute boil !

drsmurto wrote:Yep, TL, thats what i did. Used the liquid from steeping grain and a small amount of LDME to approx a full ball gravity. I was lucky cos i was able to get grumpys to do all the calcs for me before i was using beersmith.

That's what I was trying to download last night to get the answer,.... beersmith ....my daughter was downloading other stuff which makes the laptop go extremely slow .

Is the recipator similar doc? or do you recommend I keep going with the download. I gave up after a while.

Cheers

Boonie

Keep trying to get beersmith, its worth it IMHO. I happily paid for it once the trial was up.

The only way i was able to use this software as a kit brewer was to tell it lies. I only did 1/2 boils so i told it i added everything at the beginning and then when i did the boil i left he can of hopped goo out until flameout. That way the SG was similar to what beersmith thought it was going to be and i could get close to achieving the IBUs i was after. If you can do full boils using only extract you are fine.

The reversed recipe i used was aimed at getting 40 IBUs, which is in the same ball park as the real LCPA.

Cheers
DrSmurto

Aaaaaaah #### it, I`ll just pay the $14.95 for the Morgans.
Be a lot simpler

Ryan - here is a link to the reversed hopping schedule i used. It will be slightly higher in IBUs than the original one but by swapping the morgans for the coopers tin you will be close (and its cheaper).

Beersmith isnt hard to use, if i can use it anyone can.

ryan wrote:But I wouldn`t be boiling the Coopers kit! That would be added at the end of the 15 minute boil !

Wise move - and in that case, you'd have a much lower boil gravity which means you'd need marginally less hops to achieve the desired outcome.

Cheers,
TL

If you changed the initial boil time from 15 minutes to 20 minutes, you might be able to increase the IBU from the Chinook and the Cluster that additional 5 IBUs that you require. as the hop utilisation goes from about 12.5% to 15.3%....

eg the IBUs you get from 12g Chinook(12%) @ 15 mins is 9.6 IBUs, but if you increase to 20 mins it goes to 11.8 IBUs so thats 2.2 IBUs more... plus it shouldnt change the flavour...

and 15g cluster (7%) @15 mins would go from 7 IBUs to 8.6 so there is another 1.6 IBUs...

Just a thought...

Thank you one, thank you all.
I will sub. the Morgans Draught for Coopers Draught, use the original amount of hops and increase the boil time by 5 minutes.
The one I bottled Monday from the original LCPA recipe is dropping out crystal clear and a nice golden straw colour.
Maybe 150g. cold steeped Carapils and a bit of Amarillo dry hop in the next.
{sorry to stuff around with your recipe Boonie- I can`t help it}

ryan wrote:Thank you one, thank you all.
I will sub. the Morgans Draught for Coopers Draught, use the original amount of hops and increase the boil time by 5 minutes.
The one I bottled Monday from the original LCPA recipe is dropping out crystal clear and a nice golden straw colour.
Maybe 150g. cold steeped Carapils and a bit of Amarillo dry hop in the next.
{sorry to stuff around with your recipe Boonie- I can`t help it}

No worries, I've been altering it slightly too with some Crystal Grain, reversing the Hop Schedule (idea from Doc) and changing Boil times, Boil volume etc.........

Hope it turns out nice for you..

Cheers

Boonie

This thread just keeps going doesnt it Boonie..... it must be due a sticky sometime soon or maybe we need to re-open the discussion on the ultimate recipes section or a recipe database a la AHB.......

drsmurto wrote:This thread just keeps going doesnt it Boonie..... it must be due a sticky sometime soon or maybe we need to re-open the discussion on the ultimate recipes section or a recipe database a la AHB.......

It does keep going....you started it ...I reckon the Ultimate recipes would be a great idea. Maybe do a poll on it

I'm sure Oliver will get it going when he gets a spare minute.

Yeah, start the Ultimate recipe thread back up and get everyone to nominate their fav recipe and then poll it from there....

Cheers

Boonie

Yeah, start the Ultimate recipe thread back up and get everyone to nominate their fav recipe and then poll it from there....

i'd definately nominate this recipe, Boonie - its become one of my staples. Always on tap!