Malt and alcohol content

[Anna]

Can anyone clear up my latest confusion? If malt is "unfermentable", wouldn't it follow that the more malt used, the lower the alcohol content, as I gather the fermentation of the sugar is what creates the alcohol? Anna

[Bum]

Malt is not unfermentable it is just somewhat less fermentable than, say, dex or sugar. The potential for a slightly lower alc content when using malt is easily compensated by better flavour and mouthfeel, IMO. Of course, if you do have a specific ABV% you're aiming for you can alter your fermentables to hit that target. Someone here will definitely be able to give you a more scientific answer pretty soon, I am sure.

[Anna]

Thanks Bum - that's a bit clearer. It's just that I was reading some old posts and someone was wanting to make an "all malt lager", but then someone else said that malt, being "unfermentable", would make it sweeter. So I wonder how you would do an "all malt" - surely you would have to add some sugar/dex to get a reasonable alc level?

[Bum]

The person might not have explained themselves properly. Malt is fermentable. It is just not as fermentable as dex/sugar/etc.

A quick example: Using Beersmith (a program used to design beer recipes) I just quickly changed out 1kg of malt with the same of dextrose. The malt version was predicted to be 3.9% and the dex version was 4.1%. We aren't talking about a massive difference and it is one you can sort out by just adding more fermentables if you wish.

[EDIT: if you can remember the exact post put up a link and someone will explain exactly what the confusion is. The thing you remember might have been referring to spec grains which I understand are much less fermentable and some completely unfermentable (but I don't think anyone would have been suggesting that they would make a beer entirely out of it so I dunno).]

[Anna]

So, theoretically, if you used 2 kg of just malt, and no sugar at all, it would give you a nice sweet ale with a decent alc. level? (I say "nice sweet ale" cause then I might be able to drink it!)

BTW - I recently tasted a friend's HB made with all table sugar, no malt, and to be honest, I felt like I had a mouth full of fairy floss! Poor old guy, said he saw the Coopers BE in the supermarket but thought that was something "extra" you added, along with the table sugar!

[Bum]

You can do that but it won't be "sweet" in the way you might imagine. It might be sweet for beer but it won't be like a beer soft-drink, if you know what I mean. You definitely could use 2kg of malt but maybe post your recipe before you brew it and someone might be able to give you an idea of where it might finish up before you do it.

One thing you need to consider about adding that much malt, though - most people feel that because of this added "sweetness" you need to make hop additions to balance that out. This would be something to seek advice about when you post your planned recipe.

[Anna]

Sorry I can't find the post that confused me - I'm really bored at work today and I've just been reading the forum all day. Can't remember what page it was on. Learning lots - it's a great forum, eh?

Thanks for your help (again) Bum.

[warra48]

Malt will essentially ferment out fairly fully, but not as completely as dextrose.

The slight residual unfermented part of the malt is what gives your beer body and mouthfeel.

If you want a beer which is somewhat sweeter than the average beer, but still nice, there are several things which will help:

1. Mash higher, between 68 to 70ºC. This is only of use if you brew All Grain. All kits will have been mashed lower than that, I'm sure.
2. Use less bittering hops. Again, only of use if brewing All Grain, or at least a Partial.
2. Steep some crystal malts. They will ferment to a degree, but not as much as malt. 200 to 300 gr will add some nice character to English style Ales.
3. Use a yeast which has a lower than average attenuation, say high 60% to low 70%. This will leave more unfermented malt in your beer, giving you more mouthfeel, body, and sweetness. You will need to get into liquid yeasts to do this. Have a look at CraftBrewer's site, and compare the different liquid yeasts he has, and the varying attenuation figures.
4. Add lactose. I personally wouldn't, but some people add it to Stouts.

Some styles which fall into the sweeter and less bitter catagories would be English Milds and some of their Brown Ales.

[Anna]

Very helpful thanks Warra. I'll try some of your suggestions. How much lactose would you add to a K&K 23L brew?

[Anna]

Warra - another question if you don't mind: I checked out the CraftBrewers site - very interesting! With the crystal malt, can it be used with K&K and, if so, how do you go about "steeping", when and how is it added to the wort, etc?

[warra48]

Anna, I've never used lactose, and have no plans to do that myself. Maybe others might have a better idea on whether you should add it and how much.
Personally, I'd prefer to get my sweetness from Crystal and Cara type malts.

You certainly can use Crystal malts with K&K recipes. It will add a little sweetness, and some more grain character.
Although I brew All Grain, I use Crystal malts in most of my recipes.

I'd suggest you start with say 200 gr of medium Crystal, and see how you like it. You can then adjust it to your preference.
If you prefer, you can mix different Crystal malts to make up the quantity for some extra flavour dimensions. I often mix medium and dark Crystal and Cara malts. Be aware that darker malt will also add some slight roasted or chocolate character. If you don't want that, use light or medium Crystal malts.

I'd add the 200 gr Crystal to about 1 litre of cold water. Give it a good stir, and heat it on the stove until you have it at 70ºC, and try to hold it there for approx 30 minutes. It doesn't matter if you go over or under by a margin, it's a pretty forgiving process. Apply some more heat if needed if it cools off too much.

Then give it another good stir, and drain the liquid into another container by pouring it all through a sieve to strain it.
Put the strained grains back into your original pot, and add some more hot (not boiling) water, stir and drain again through the sieve.

The drained liquid (now called wort) must be boiled for at least 15 minutes to kill any potential nasties from the grain.
If you wish, you can add some hops to this liquid as you boil it. Cool it in a sink of water, change the cooling water if needed.
Just add the boiled wort to your brew. If you've added some hops, add the lot, hops and all, no need to strain.

It's really quite simple, and fun to do. You'll love the extra character you add to your beer. Smells good too while you do it.

Here's a link to this topic on AHB: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/i ... article=80

[billybushcook]

Smells good too while you do it.

I think so too Warra but my missus nearly dry reaches when she walks in the shed while I've got an AG brew with fresh flowers boiling in the kettle
Needless to say, she is not a beer drinker!

& no, my beer is not the problem (thought I'd get in first) it's the Hops that get her!

speak'n of which, Warra
Just took delivery of some of the Galaxy flowers (15% AA) that Mark has in stock at the moment, will be giving them a whirl this weekend.

Mick.

[Bizier]

Anna, I am unsure if it was already put this way, but "malt" (malt extract) contains a variety of sugars that have been tailored so that some are too hefty (long chain suagars) for brewers yeast to eat, but others are definitely edible and will be converted to alcohol. The maltster is usually trying to give you a range so that some body and sweetness remain, they control this with their mashing process.

OT: Billy, I am keen to hear how you go with your Galaxy hops. I suggest using them quite sparingly until you get a handle, they are very strong. That said, I am drinking a strong IPA that used a good whack both early and late.

[Bum]

Further OT: Bizier, I just bought some Galaxy for an AIPA-ish beer I'm designing at the moment but have never used it before - what would you, personally, consider a "good whack"?

(You'll will be in held in no way accountable for my horrible beer.)

[Anna]

Thanks so much for your suggestions guys. I'm definitely going to try the Crystal Warra - I won't bother with the lactose, but I think I'll wait till the weather gets a bit warmer, as while it is so cold I've been brewing Coopers Draught and Lager using SA-23 yeast around 12-14 Deg, and I'm guessing (?) that the crystal would go better in an ale with an ale yeast - is that right? I might try the Wyeast soon though, as you suggested (for sweetness) - according to the Craftbrewers website there are a couple that attentuate low at temps of 16-20 deg. (Bit pricey though!) Anna

[Bizier]

Anna, never overlook the importance of yeast, it makes your beer afterall.
A beer that is regarded as well made, is largely so because the yeast selection and treatment has been appropriate. If I had to choose drinking a beer with slightly botched recipe or a slightly botched fermentation, I would always opt for the former.

Bum... my IPA used a lot of hops, the galaxy was only a small part (following for 46L):

90 min 30.00 gm Galaxy [13.40 %] (90 min) Hops
90 min 60.00 gm Chinook [13.00 %] (90 min) Hops
90 min 125.00 gm Columbus Homegrown Dry [8.00 %] (90 min) Hops
90 min 230.00 gm Hallertauer Hersbrucker Homegrown Dry [4.02 %] (90 min) Hops
30 min 50.00 gm Centennial [10.00 %] (30 min) Hops
10 min 30.00 gm Galaxy [13.40 %] (10 min) Hops
10 min 200.00 gm Chinook Homegrown Wet [2.20 %] (10 min) Hops
10 min 200.00 gm Cluster Homegrown Wet [1.17 %] (10 min) Hops
ED:
30 min 50.00 gm Cascade [5.50 %] (30 min) Hops - I knew I put some in there, this made me find my brewing list and update beersmith.

[Bum]

Wow. That is a lot of hops. The word "homegrown" having such prominence is pretty cool too.

[Anna]

Thanks again fellas!

PS: Bizier - what are you doing on the computer at 11.56 pm, and Bum - 6.48 am??? I guess I'm lucky to be able to get on while I'm at work!

[Bizier]

Bizier - what are you doing on the computer at 11.56 pm

I changed jobs... I had worked from 9.00am-10.30pm... I needed a beer and a chillout thinking about beer.

[billybushcook]

If I had to choose drinking a beer with slightly botched recipe or a slightly botched fermentation, I would always opt for the former.

I'm hear'n Ya' on the latter.
I think we've all been there at some stage & still tried to drink the batch as punishment????

Mick.