HB shop owner recommends boiling grains for a stout!!?!?

[squirt in the turns]

I'm thinking St Patrick's day is an auspicious day to brew my first ever stout, so I just lead-footed it to my local HB shop in my lunch break and picked up 500g chocolate grain, lactose, Safale s-04 and Norther Brewer hops to compliment the can of Morgan's Dockside Stout and 1400g dark liquid malt extract I got the other day.

The owner recommended I add the 500g grain to BOILING water and simmer it for 12 minutes. Isn't that going to extract some pretty harsh tannins from the grain, resulting in a very astringent beer? My plan was just to steep it in warm water for 30 mins, along with 150g or so of crystal grain I have lying around. I understand that some astringency is desirable in certain stout styles, but boiling would push it over the top, surely?

Anyway, the rest of the plan goes like this:
Boil some of the malt in the steeping/sparging water with 20-25g NB hops for 25 minutes (quantity of malt to be determined to achieve correct gravity to extract appropriate bitterness from the hops). Add the can, the rest of the malt and some lactose, check the temp and pitch the yeast.

Any thoughts, please? Is this guy nuts? You don't boil grains, right? Is 250g lactose about right?
Cheers,
Matt

[drsmurto]

Lactose is used i milk stouts for a touch of sweetness. Never made one so cant help you.

Boiling grain is retarded. Tannin extraction galore.

Steep as you planned. Boil the liquid from the steepings.

Brewcraft was it? Retards.

[squirt in the turns]

Cheers Drsmurto! It was Burleigh Homebrew Supplies that I went to.

A touch of sweetness is all that I'm looking for. I'll go for 200-250g unless anyone here says otherwise. Lactose is 100% non-fermentable, right?

[drsmurto]

Yep, 100% non-fermentable but its only a fraction as sweet as sugar.

[Kevnlis]

A 12 minute boil is not going to really extract enough tanin from 500g of grain to give a full batch an astringent character in a stout. It is common practice to boil a portion of grain which has had a lactic treatment, ie. part of an old mash was allowed to undergo a lactic fermentation before being boiled and put into the main mash. I do not think it was bad advice at all, just perhaps not explained as well as it should have been?

[squirt in the turns]

Ahh, thanks Kevnlis, you learn something every day.

Anyway, I'm with drsmurto - the guy's an idiot! I just checked the best before date on the Safale s-04 I bought from Burleigh Home Brew, and it's November 2008! I know he keeps it in a fridge, but it's probably useless, right? I'll have to go make a scene and get my money back.

So, I thought I'd still make it tonight and just use the Morgan's kit yeast. I had a look at the date on the can and it's... yep, Nov 2008! WTF!?! Now, aren't the cans usually dated a couple of years after manufacture? So it must be pretty old. That yeast's probably had it too, right? Even if the yeast is still alive, isn't it likely to have a metallic taste from the can? That kit was from Palm Beach Home Brew. What's up with these shops? I know, I should check the dates before I pay, but that shouldn't be necessary! Craftbrewer.com.au has been recommended to me before - is this kind of crap less likely to happen if I get my stuff from them?

[Kevnlis]

The safale yeast will be fine, and even 6 months past its use by date will certainly give a better result than the freshest Morgans sachet!

As for the tin of extract, I reckon the steeped grain you are adding will do well to hide any off flavours that may be present (if any indeed are present, there is a bit of debate about this topic).

Craftbrewer is a great site, and I will personaly vouch for the owner who takes great pride in his fantastic quality control and customer service!

[drsmurto]

Seems you can teach an old dog new tricks!

Top explanation Kev, that course is paying off then!

Craftbrewer doesnt sell kits so if you want kits you are going to have to stick with either a HBS or kmart/coles etc.

I still stand by my original statement re Brewcraft and mental retardation!

[squirt in the turns]

Cheers guys.

I'll just use the out of date Safale S-04 - I can't be arsed to quibble over $5. I'll make a starter tonight and see how it's going tomorrow. I've made ale starters using S-04 in the past by just boiling LDME water and using a plastic bottle with an air-lock, as per "how to brew" on the homebrewandbeer.com main site. I've just been chucking the entire contents of this bottle into my wort. Will this work ok for a stout too?

I'll take the can back to the shop in Palmy tomorrow - I need a better hydrometer anyway - the one I got in K-mart only goes up to 1045 or something.

drsmurto, Is Brewcraft that bad? The hops, lactose and grains I got yesterday are all Brewcraft!

One or two more questions: I don't have to crack steeping grains myself, do I? They still look fairly intact in the packet. If I do, can I use a blender?
Should I be adding more fermentables to this stout? I plan to try to save it for the winter and want and nice strong, warming drop. So far it's going to have:
500g chocolate grain
100-200g crystal grain
1400g liquid dark malt
1.7 kg can Morgan's dockside stout

I'm guessing that will give me somewhere in the region of 5.5 - 6%? I wouldn't mind if it went as high as 7% or slightly more. How much fermentable sugar comes out of the grains? Should I consider adding some LDME? Honey?

Thanks again all!

[Kevnlis]

I would not make a starter with dry yeast. Dry yeast is ready to go stright out of the packet, all you will achieve by maiking a starter is to increase your chances of infection. You will also adapt the yeast to the starter wort, rather than your actualy brewing wort (different volume, temp, gravity, yeast density, etc.). This will cause some strain on the yeast and can promote extended lag times, unwanted esters/off flavours, and could result in a stuck fermentation due to the yeast not getting enough nutrient during the uptake period.

To answer Doc, I may be a dog but your still older...

Honestly, I have learnt quite a bit of brewing related bio-chemistry and microbiology. Only done one brewing course so far, and honestly I did not get much out of it (did learn some economics and packaging stuff, equipment, and lot's of palate calibration!) I knew the majority of what they taught already. I can already see that my brewing course this year will be much more intensive!

PS: I have used three different Brewcraft shops over the years and must say, the owners of them all lacked a bit in any knowledge beyond simple K&K brewing. Also none of them really stocked anything in the way of fresh grain or hops...

[squirt in the turns]

Cheers Kev. Hmm, I've never had any issues from making starters from dry yeast, not that I'm questioning your evidently advanced qualifications or superior knowledge or experience. I just want to make sure that this yeast isn't dead before I pitch it and potentially ruin a pretty expensive brew - is there any way to do that without making a starter?

[Bizier]

I just want to make sure that this yeast isn't dead before I pitch it and potentially ruin a pretty expensive brew - is there any way to do that without making a starter?

One method:
You can boil say 600ml or so of water with a spoonful bit of DME for 15 minutes, try to keep the lid covering it except for a crack if you can. Cool the pot to luke warm in a water bath with the lid on. Pour this into a very clean and sanitised glass (leaving a few cms at the top) and cover with sanitised foil. You pitch your yeast into this before you start your brewday, and you will definitely see if the yeast is alive or dead. This will get the yeast ready and roaring for your brew.

[Kevnlis]

You can rehydrate the yeast immediately before pitching, plain boiled cooled water (around 20C) is just as good as water with extract in it. I have a gas stove and old fashioned steel kettle. It is easy to boil this and set it aside to cool, stays sanitised enough inside that when I pour it into a glass to rehydrate the yeast I don't have to worry. It should turn into a foamy cream after 10-15 minutes if it is viable, though really dry yeast is fairly stable and the amount in a safale sachet is more than enough even after expiring (unless it has sat on a hot shelf at a HB shop).

[drsmurto]

Kev - i am the dog who learnt new tricks! The info on pH and tannin extraction was news to me so cheers for that.

Brewcraft are over-priced. Massively. Look at the prices of Beerbelly, Craftbrewer etc and you will see what grain, LDME is actually worth.

[squirt in the turns]

Ok, thanks again guys. You've talked me out of making a starter. So dry yeast will benefit from rehydration, but not from being fed before pitching? But if I start using liquid yeast, or harvesting yeast from previous batches, a starter is always beneficial?

Can anyone offer any advice about whether cracking the grain further will be necessary, or adding more fermentables to the mix? What kind of effect would honey have? I would want to avoid honey from gum trees, right?

[drsmurto]

Ok, thanks again guys. You've talked me out of making a starter. So dry yeast will benefit from rehydration, but not from being fed before pitching? But if I start using liquid yeast, or harvesting yeast from previous batches, a starter is always beneficial?

A starter isnt always necessary but in most cases its a good idea. You can dump a new batch onto a yeast cake (providing the fresh batch is at pitching temp) without issues. I harvest yeast cakes and re-use part of it in a new beer without making a starter. If i store it for more than a week then i make a small starter just to get it going again. Read the sticky and the links in it.

Can anyone offer any advice about whether cracking the grain further will be necessary, or adding more fermentables to the mix? What kind of effect would honey have? I would want to avoid honey from gum trees, right?

If the grain has already been 'cracked' by your HBS then you are ok.

Honey is a simple sugar. It adds alcohol but no body and you need a lot to impart any flavour to the beer. You need twice as much honey as you do sugar to get the same amount of alcohol due to the water present in honey.

Lots of friendly debate over honey from gum trees. I have used blue gum in the past as its my favourite honey to eat. I dont have an issue with the flavour it imparts of my beer/cider/cyser etc etc.

[Tourist]

I recommend making your beer without honey. If, after tasting your beer, you think it would benefit from a honey addition (bearing in mind that it contributes minimal flavour or body), add up to 200g of honey next time you make it OR add a small teaspoon of honey to the glass (seriously).

Way back when I was starting out, I added honey to a few beers. They were all crap - the residual honey flavour was out of place. Did I often drink commercial honey beers? No. Why did I feel the need to add honey? No Idea. Waste of time and money for me.

I'm not saying that honey has no place in beer, but think about what you want from your beer (especially a stout) before you go putting honey in. End.

[Trough Lolly]

So dry yeast will benefit from rehydration, but not from being fed before pitching?

Dry yeast is packed with chemical compounds that give the yeast a kick when you rehydrate dry yeast in a cup of boiled/cooled water. Trehalose is what gives the yeast it's immediate shot in the arm and you can see the reaction through a pale tan foam that forms over the surface of the water. It's an excellent way to proof the yeast to ensure that you haven't wasted another 12+ hours waiting for the yeast when it won't come, if you know what I mean. The yeast needs to reconstitute so putting it in a sugary solution straight up will actually hinder the process of the cells fully rehydrating and making sure that the cell walls are ready to take in the sugars when you pitch the yeast "milk" into the wort.

I recommend rehydrating / proofing dry yeast, especially if it isn't brand spanking new.

Cheers,
TL

[Trough Lolly]

The owner recommended I add the 500g grain to BOILING water and simmer it for 12 minutes.

Matt....did the HBS sell you the grains whole or cracked?

Cheers,
TL

[squirt in the turns]

Hey TL, I think they were cracked - they didn't look whole. It was Brewcraft stuff (which I'll avoid from now on).

I made it up yesterday, as follows:
500g chocolate grain, 100g crystal grain, 500g light dry malt, 1400g liquid dark malt, 225g lactose, 25g Northern Brewer hops, 1 can Morgans Dockside Stout.

Yeast rehydrated in a sanitised glass according to your instructions (no sugar). Grain steeped for about 40 mins, got about 8 litres steep/sparge water, in which I boiled 500g LDME and the hops for 30 mins (boil gravity was 1035), added the dark liquid malt, lactose and can contents. Then cooled in a water bath, topped up to 23 litres and pitched yeast at 27 degrees. Have brought the temp down to about 23 so far, and it's bubbling away nicely this morning.

OG was 1060.

Hopefully it'll be a ripper!