Dark Ale - some opinions?

[Slash]

Hi guys

I'm about to put together a dark ale using the Tooheys kit can, 1kg LDME (I'm guessing I should have used DLME ) and 500g dextrose. Which yeast should I use (No way am I using the yeast that comes with a Tooheys kit), and also any ideas about hopping? I do boils of roughly 5L usually for around 20 mins and my Pale Ales come out pretty well but I've never ventured beyond that.
Cheers

[Lachy]

I've done dark ales quite successfully using both the Coopers kit yeast and Safale S-04. I wouldn't worry too much about using LDME instead of DDME or DLME... you'll still have a nice beer. As to hops, I reckon that Goldings or Fuggles would be a nice touch in a dark ale, but as I've not tried the Tooheys can I can't really give an exact recommendation.

[FazerPete]

I've done the Tooheys dark ale a couple of times and it's not too bad. Definitely the best of their range.

Anyway I agree with Lachy, S-04 is good or you could use Nottingham or Windsor for something with a bit more character. Goldings or Fuggles are a good hop to use in something like this.

If you want to really add some flavour to it and you're up to using some specialty grains, add 200g of chocolate malt. If you don't feel comfortable steeping grain, I think you can get 1kg cans of liquid chocolate malt from your LHBS.

[Slash]

Thanks for all the help guys. I've picked up about 50g of Goldings from the local HBS, how should I use them in the boil (ie how long)?

[warra48]

Thanks for all the help guys. I've picked up about 50g of Goldings from the local HBS, how should I use them in the boil (ie how long)?

That all depends on the AA% of your hops, and what you are trying to achieve.
The conventional boiling time for bitterness is 60 minutes in wort with a SG consistent with what you are brewing (i.e. a too concentrated wort will not allow your hops to be fully utilised), for flavour from 20 to 10 minutes from the end of the boil, and for aroma at flameout or dryhopped after 4 to 5 days in the fermenter.

If you are doing 5 litre boils, then add about ½kg of the dry malt to that, and boil your hops in that for the required period, add the rest of the dry malt and your kit, dissolve it all, cool it and add to the fermenter.

A brewing program like BeerSmith will help enormously in calculating the extra IBUs you will get from your hops, depending on how long you boil them.

[Slash]

Think I might just stick with my 20 minute boils for now, I don't really know anything about AA's or IBU's and my brewing is still only very basic and not too far removed from kit & kilo. I don't really want to jump into all that just yet...

[Trough Lolly]

Hi guys

I'm about to put together a dark ale using the Tooheys kit can, 1kg LDME (I'm guessing I should have used DLME ) and 500g dextrose. Which yeast should I use (No way am I using the yeast that comes with a Tooheys kit), and also any ideas about hopping? I do boils of roughly 5L usually for around 20 mins and my Pale Ales come out pretty well but I've never ventured beyond that.
Cheers

G'day Slash,
You might want to consider steeping around 250g of crystal malt (dark crystal if you want) in a few litres of cold water, bringing it slowly up to 70C. If you steep in a muslin bag, it makes removal and rinsing of the grains in a colander a piece of pi$$. Top up the steeped liquor to around 6L with fresh water, and boil for 30 mins with around 15-20g of Goldings added at the start of the boil. This will substantially improve the flavour profile of the kit based brew. Using your original recipe, I'd drop the dextrose down to no more than 250g if you steep 250g of crystal. The dextrose is a short chain sugar and will therefore add dryness the beer which is the opposite of what you'll be doing by steeping grains and doing a small boil. Don't sweat all the calcs at the moment - I'll assume that it's a full flavoured beer that you're after!

Cheers,
TL

[Slash]

G'day TL,

That sounds great, will defnitely give that a go! I was always a little wary of steeping grains in case I screwed it up, but that sounds easy. One question though - You said to rinse the grain - do I do this with the additional water you mentioned to total the 6 litres, I guess kind of sparging it? Sorry if it's obvious to you guys, but I'm really green on the grain stuff...

And I have to say thanks to you all for your input, this forum really is a great place to learn!

Slash

[Trough Lolly]

G'day Slash,
You need a couple of litres to steep the grains in, a litre or so to rinse the sugars out of the grains in the bag (just sit the bag in a colander over the pot and drizzle some 60C water over the bag to rinse - it's not unlike sparging the grains as the all grainers do) and then top up the resultant sweet liquor to around 6L so you've got a reasonable boil volume to work with the flavouring hops that I mentioned. Avoid over rinsing - you'll only release harsh tannins from the grain matter and ruin your final product so don't rinse any more than 1.5L over the grains. One point I did overlook was the option to add the LDME to the boil as well. If you find the hops a bit too strong, you can use less hops, or, next time add the unhopped LDM extract to the 6L of crystal extract and boil the lot for 30 mins. The gravity (thickness / concentration) in the boil does affect the extraction of hop compounds but I won't get too complicated on that at the moment .

All grainers typically boil for 60 to 90 minutes, to get bittering components out of the hops. You'd be doing a 30 minute boil to get flavouring from the hops as the kit that you'd use has already been bittered (and don't toss the kit into the boil - it's not necessary). The goldings hop addition is to balance out the additional sweetness that you've added to the kit, ie, the crystal and malt extract. As you become more experienced, we'll look at how to calculate more precisely the malt / hops balance to deliver particular styles of beer...

You can use the same principles above to your pale ales - steep some light or pale crystal - rinse - boil with a hop addition (cascade, chinook, amarillo, simcoe are all good) and the malt extract in around 6L and you'll be fine.

You also asked about choice of yeast. I can recommend SO-4 dry yeast for a dark ale such as this. US-05 dry yeast is also a good general purpose yeast and would be well suited to your pale ales. Part of the joy of brewing is to do batches with different types of yeast and see which ones you prefer.

Cheers,
TL

[drsmurto]

If you havent already bought the tin can i suggest a different approach.

At the end of my kit brewing days i was using the Coopers lager tin as a base for everything. Its light in colour, flavour and IBU. Any good quality lager tin would do the trick. As you only want to do short boils this has the added benefit as it already has 23 IBU (dodgy memory so check that) so all your hop additions can be for flavour and aroma

Get all your extra flavour and colour from specialty malts - in the case of a dark ale, some dark crystal as TL suggested and maybe even some chocolate malt/carafa special (I, II or III). S-04 was my yeast of choice in dark ales. Goldings is divine.

[Slash]

G'day Slash,
You need a couple of litres to steep the grains in, a litre or so to rinse the sugars out of the grains in the bag (just sit the bag in a colander over the pot and drizzle some 60C water over the bag to rinse - it's not unlike sparging the grains as the all grainers do) and then top up the resultant sweet liquor to around 6L so you've got a reasonable boil volume to work with the flavouring hops that I mentioned. Avoid over rinsing - you'll only release harsh tannins from the grain matter and ruin your final product so don't rinse any more than 1.5L over the grains. One point I did overlook was the option to add the LDME to the boil as well. If you find the hops a bit too strong, you can use less hops, or, next time add the unhopped LDM extract to the 6L of crystal extract and boil the lot for 30 mins. The gravity (thickness / concentration) in the boil does affect the extraction of hop compounds but I won't get too complicated on that at the moment .

All grainers typically boil for 60 to 90 minutes, to get bittering components out of the hops. You'd be doing a 30 minute boil to get flavouring from the hops as the kit that you'd use has already been bittered (and don't toss the kit into the boil - it's not necessary). The goldings hop addition is to balance out the additional sweetness that you've added to the kit, ie, the crystal and malt extract. As you become more experienced, we'll look at how to calculate more precisely the malt / hops balance to deliver particular styles of beer...

You can use the same principles above to your pale ales - steep some light or pale crystal - rinse - boil with a hop addition (cascade, chinook, amarillo, simcoe are all good) and the malt extract in around 6L and you'll be fine.

You also asked about choice of yeast. I can recommend SO-4 dry yeast for a dark ale such as this. US-05 dry yeast is also a good general purpose yeast and would be well suited to your pale ales. Part of the joy of brewing is to do batches with different types of yeast and see which ones you prefer.

Cheers,
TL

That clears it all up for me! Will trek on down to local HBS and pick up 250g of Dark crystal malt and give this a blast ASAP.

Thanks again for all your help TL, I really appreciate it.

Cheers
Slash

[Slash]

Two more quick questions... do I have to crack the grains first, and how long do I steep the grains before I rinse?

[warra48]

Two more quick questions... do I have to crack the grains first, and how long do I steep the grains before I rinse?

Yes, the grains need to be crushed first. Your HB shop should be able to do that for you.
30 minutes steeping is fine, but up to na hour is OK too.

[Slash]

Two more quick questions... do I have to crack the grains first, and how long do I steep the grains before I rinse?

Yes, the grains need to be crushed first. Your HB shop should be able to do that for you.
30 minutes steeping is fine, but up to na hour is OK too.

Fantastic, cheers Warra.

[Trough Lolly]

Re the steeping, I don't actually time the steep. I add the grains in a bag, in the pot with just cold water from the tap. Put over the hotplate/burner and gently bring the lot up to around 70C, stirring frequently to avoid burning the bag on the base of the hot pot. Once you're at 70C, you'll be done, which typically takes around 20 mins to do. The most important part is to stir the warm water through the grains to rinse out all the sugars and colour.