A little brewing guidance

[dregs]

Hey all,

I've been a lurker for awhile now, bean reading lots an learning.

I have been brewing for about 20 years, I stopped for a few years there when our kids were babies, but now into it again. While I've been doing it for awhile I've been brewing crap really, well crap compared to you guys. I had been brewing Coopers stuff, stout and draught with raw sugar because a sugar mill was close. I remember my brother telling me he used malt in his brews, I thought he'd had a hard knock on the head.

Well since I started to get into it again my eyes have been opened to how I can make a very different beer than kit and sugar and have evolved from that to last last month brewing the lcpa recipe posted by Boonie, what a crazy beer, mmm, I'm in beer heaven. From that brew I did an extract with grains after studying the How To Brew website (man he's a beer God) following his Liberty ale. this one isn't ready to drink yet, but I had a taste before bottling and tasted beaudyful, my wife couldn't believe I was drinking it from the fermenter.

So now I'm up for another Extract. I like brewing with malt but I was wanting a lighter coloured beer, something like the colour of Coopers pale ale, which is a beautiful beer and one of my favs. I have some ingredients at hand and thought I'd run this past some beersperts to see if it may make a reasonable beer.

So here goes

to make 46ltrs

2 tins Morgans extra pale LME
1 kg pale dme
1 kg dex
400gm of carapils and 100gm of crystal steeped at 70 for 30 mins
Add Malts and dex to wort and bring to boil, then add hops

This where I have a choice and need some help, I have Chinook, Super alpha, Northern brewer, Amarillo and cluster. I love the flavour of the lcpa but was wanting to experiment a little more.

I use filtered water and cool the wort in a tub of ice, I have American ale yeast and will try to ferment at 18degrees for a few weeks. What I'd like to do is to make a yeast starter but I have tried to confirm a way to do this as there seems to be a few ways to do this, any advice would be greatly appreciated.

well there ya go, How am I going to go with this brew?

Thanks for listening

dregs

[aurelius121ad]

I cant give you much advice on which hops to use (I dont have enough experience with em). But check out a thread called "IBUs as a function of boil volume" (http://www.homebrewandbeer.com/forum/vi ... f=2&t=8295) as well as the "Partial Boil - Extract brewing" thread at the top of the forum.

You'll learn why you dont want to boil all your fermantables with your hops in a low volume boil them top it up later. There are equations in the Partial Boil thread that tell you what amount of your fermentables should go into what volume of wort in order to utilize the full potential of your hops.

[dregs]

I cant give you much advice on which hops to use (I dont have enough experience with em). But check out a thread called "IBUs as a function of boil volume" (http://www.homebrewandbeer.com/forum/vi ... f=2&t=8295) as well as the "Partial Boil - Extract brewing" thread at the top of the forum.

You'll learn why you dont want to boil all your fermantables with your hops in a low volume boil them top it up later. There are equations in the Partial Boil thread that tell you what amount of your fermentables should go into what volume of wort in order to utilize the full potential of your hops.

Ahh, well this complicates things more than I'd like. Maybe my last brew won't be that nice!

I used 9 litres to steep grain brought it to boil then turned off then added 4 tins extract, brought to boil then added 21g super alpha for 60mins then 21g cascade for 30mins then 21g Cascade for 15mins. This brought the total liquid to about 14 litres when finished, when this was cooled to 18degrees I added it to 32litres of 18 degree water in the fermenter. Whats the result of all this going to be like then?

Is the secret to have a big pot?

[James L]

not necessarily...

in order to get the correct bitterness in the final beer, you need to ensure that you boil the hops in a malt water mixture the same or similar to the final ratio...

eg if you use 3kg of extract to make 23L of beer, you can use hte same ratios for whatever boil volume you can achieve with the equipment you have...

3kg/23L = .13kg/L of water,

so if you have a 10L pot, you can boil 6L with .78kg of the malt you have (6x0.13kg)

you just add the same hops you would add for the whole brew, but the hops bitterness/flavour/aroma wont be sullied by too little or too much malt in the smaller boil as the ratio of malt/water will be the same as the final product.

Also, if you choose to steep grains, you can use the steeped water to boil the malt in, you just need to take into account the extra sugars you may have introduced from steeping, and add less malt extract accordingly...

hope that helps a little... and using brewing software can help you work out some of the harder calculations.

[dregs]

not necessarily...

in order to get the correct bitterness in the final beer, you need to ensure that you boil the hops in a malt water mixture the same or similar to the final ratio...

eg if you use 3kg of extract to make 23L of beer, you can use hte same ratios for whatever boil volume you can achieve with the equipment you have...

3kg/23L = .13kg/L of water,

so if you have a 10L pot, you can boil 6L with .78kg of the malt you have (6x0.13kg)

you just add the same hops you would add for the whole brew, but the hops bitterness/flavour/aroma wont be sullied by too little or too much malt in the smaller boil as the ratio of malt/water will be the same as the final product.

Also, if you choose to steep grains, you can use the steeped water to boil the malt in, you just need to take into account the extra sugars you may have introduced from steeping, and add less malt extract accordingly...


hope that helps a little... and using brewing software can help you work out some of the harder calculations.

Thanks for the advice guys, you've been a great help.

James, thanks for making it so clear, I think I can hear a penny dropping.

So now my question is , how and when do I add the remaining malt and or dex? Does it go in to the pot after the hour long boil to be cooled with the wort and is it best to use dry or liquid malt for the boil?

I'm thinking that my last brew is going to be very sweet.

Cheers

[homebrewer79]

You can just add the extra malt and dex about 5 mins before the end of the boil so they disolve easier. You can add them after the boil but it might take a little longer to disolve. If your getting into extract recipies I suggest you get youself a copy of Beersmith, It's a life saver

[dregs]

Hey thanks homebrewer,

yes i have just looked at beersmith, looks comprehensive, I'll try and knock out a recipe.

Ok, so it looks like I should be able to handle the boil and the steep and the cooling, now I'd like to make a yeast starter.

Can someone offer advice into making one? I have a flask, I have yeast and malt, from what I v'e read I boil some water with some malt-cool it off put a bubbler on and then add yeast , brew for a few days until I get a slurry on bottom then add to fermenter. I have read that the whole lot should not go in, just the slurry, is that correct?

Appreciate your help

[homebrewer79]

Have a read of this thread, http://homebrewandbeer.com/forum/viewto ... st+starter , It really refers to liquid yeast but you can do the same with dry from what I've read

[warra48]

Have a read of this thread, http://homebrewandbeer.com/forum/viewto ... st+starter , It really refers to liquid yeast but you can do the same with dry from what I've read

You can make a starter for dry yeast, but it's not really necessary. Rehydrating the yeast before pitching is all you require, as the number of cells in a sachet of dry yeast from a reputable source is sufficient to ferment a 23 litre batch.

You can also just pitch a liquid yeast, although most brewers will want to build up a starter and split the yeast up to make further starters.

Having said that, it's not a bad idea to pitch 2 sachets of yeast if you are making a lager. Also, for lagers, it is a good idea to make a starter if using liquid yeasts to build up the volume of yeast cells.

If I were you, I would keep things simple till you are comfortable with your brewing again, and not worry about starters until you are ready to move into more complicated things.

[dregs]

thanks guys,

That's a great thread, it's a very interesting thing brewing beer with so many different things that can be done to reach the same goal.

Thanks Warra, yeah good advice I'll just keep things simple at this stage and rehydrate my dry yeast.

[dregs]

ok, so I've had a bit of a play with Beersmith (what a great little program) and came up with this.

Type: Extract
Date: 25/07/2008
Batch Size: 46.00 L
Brewer:
Boil Size: 15.00 L Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: Brew Pot (4 Gallon)
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0

Amount Item Type % or IBU
1.00 kg Extra Light Dry Extract (3.0 SRM) Dry Extract 15.38 %
4.50 kg Pale Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM) Extract 69.23 %
0.40 kg Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 6.15 %
0.10 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 1.54 %
41.00 gm Super Alpha [13.00 %] (60 min) Hops 13.2 IBU
40.00 gm Chinook [13.00 %] (60 min) Hops 12.9 IBU
42.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (30 min) Hops 6.8 IBU
42.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (15 min) Hops 4.4 IBU
0.50 kg Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 SRM) Sugar 7.69 %
3 Pkgs SafBrew Ale (DCL Yeast #S-33) Yeast-Ale

Est Original Gravity: 1.042 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.010 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.011 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.005 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.02 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.65 %
Bitterness: 37.2 IBU Calories: 90 cal/l
Est Color: 6.2 SRM Color: Color


I see that the taste rating isn't too good. Could it be the hops? I only have a few to play with and I put a fair bit of bittering hops in.

Does this look like an ok beer? I'd love to hear your opinions before I go ahead.

Cheers

[earle]

All mine have a taste rating of 35, its a default value not related to you recipe.

37 IBU is quite bitter which may be to your liking. I don't think carapils adds much sweetness and that amount of crystal in 46L is not going to add that much sweetness either. Sweetness from the malt balances the IBU of your hops to give you the perceived bitterness. I would probably drop the amarillo at 30min unless you're sure you like it bitter. You'll still have reasonable bitterness and you'll get the flavour/some aroma from the 15min addition. My thoughts anyway.

BTW, 46 litres is a large brew if you're not sure of the outcome. 2x23L would let you try 2 different recipes. Some people even do 13L batches when experimenting with recipes.

[homebrewer79]

with regards to the taste rating, thats something you fill in once you've tasted it. Beersmith doen't have your taste buds so he wont tell you how good it is. Great bloke Beersmith, never has an opinion, thats BJCP's job. I wish my missus was more like Beersmith

edit: Itype too slow

[James L]

Dont worry about the taste rating.... you change that... not the program...

It looks ok, how did you work out the bitterness? I feel as though its going to be higher than 37.2...

You have to take into account that you arent boiling all the malt for 60 minutes... only 1/3 (in the 15L) then you are adding the rest 5 minutes before the end of the boil...

you can change when the malt is to be added by clicking on the malt, and changing it to a late exctract boil (i made it 5 minutes).

I have put your recipe into beersmith and have put that you add 1.8kg of malt in the inital boil (15L), add the hops, then add the 3.7kg of malt and the .5kg of dex in the last 5 minutes... and you end up with a final bitterness around 75.3.... the alc is the same...

by reducing the ammount of malt you boil, you get a better hop utilisation.. so you arent needing to add so much hops.

do you understand what i have done?

PM me if you need any help

[dregs]

thanks for the hop tip earle, I do like them bitter but I may start with a smaller amount.

Good advice regarding the batch amount, however I have always been worried that putting a small brew in a big fermenter the brew may be a risk of something going wrong. Is this thinking crazy or what?

Cheers

[dregs]

Dont worry about the taste rating.... you change that... not the program...

It looks ok, how did you work out the bitterness? I feel as though its going to be higher than 37.2...

You have to take into account that you arent boiling all the malt for 60 minutes... only 1/3 (in the 15L) then you are adding the rest 5 minutes before the end of the boil...

you can change when the malt is to be added by clicking on the malt, and changing it to a late exctract boil (i made it 5 minutes).

I have put your recipe into beersmith and have put that you add 1.8kg of malt in the inital boil (15L), add the hops, then add the 3.7kg of malt and the .5kg of dex in the last 5 minutes... and you end up with a final bitterness around 75.3.... the alc is the same...

by reducing the ammount of malt you boil, you get a better hop utilisation.. so you arent needing to add so much hops.

do you understand what i ahve done?

PM me if you need any help

Thanks James, oooh, thats bitter, I had a guess for the hops.

Ok, yes 1/3 malt in the 15l boil then add the remaining malt and dex last 5mins. Now I see how to work the program, (I think)

Ok so I've redone it.

Amount Item Type % or IBU
1.00 kg Extra Light Dry Extract (3.0 SRM) Dry Extract 15.38 %
2.70 kg Pale Liquid Extract [Boil for 5 min] Extract 41.54 %
1.80 kg Pale Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM) Extract 27.69 %
0.40 kg Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 6.15 %
0.10 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 1.54 %
30.00 gm Super Alpha [13.00 %] (60 min) Hops 10.8 IBU
20.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (30 min) Hops 3.6 IBU
20.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (15 min) Hops 2.3 IBU
0.50 kg Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 SRM) Sugar 7.69 %
3 Pkgs SafBrew Ale (DCL Yeast #S-33) Yeast-Ale



Est Original Gravity: 1.042 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.010 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.011 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.005 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.02 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.65 %
Bitterness: 32.5 IBU Calories: 90 cal/l
Est Color: 6.2 SRM Color: Color


Cheers and thanks for your help

[pixelboy]

looks ok to me...

Id throw in 20gms or so Amarillo at flameout (0 mins) for aroma, or dry hop if your planning to rack to secondary!

Otherwise it looks pretty tasty to me!

[dregs]

looks ok to me...

Id throw in 20gms or so Amarillo at flameout (0 mins) for aroma, or dry hop if your planning to rack to secondary!

Otherwise it looks pretty tasty to me!

Thanks pixelboy

it all helps.

Cheers

[warra48]

looks ok to me...

Id throw in 20gms or so Amarillo at flameout (0 mins) for aroma, or dry hop if your planning to rack to secondary!

Otherwise it looks pretty tasty to me!

Or you can do what I do. I just dry hop in my primary fermenter, as I don't rack my ales at all.
I've just done that with 25 gr Bramling Cross in an ag ESB I put down last Monday. I'll leave it for another week or so before bottling.

[dregs]

looks ok to me...

Id throw in 20gms or so Amarillo at flameout (0 mins) for aroma, or dry hop if your planning to rack to secondary!

Otherwise it looks pretty tasty to me!

Or you can do what I do. I just dry hop in my primary fermenter, as I don't rack my ales at all.
I've just done that with 25 gr Bramling Cross in an ag ESB I put down last Monday. I'll leave it for another week or so before bottling.

Cheers

So just chuck em in purely for flavour and they will settle to the bottom. I will bulk prime this brew so should have a clear beer with no hop material in.