Old school habbits die hard

[Gym_]

Hey guys 1st off want to say nice site and forums been reading it for almost a week strait..

Ok I used to brew for many years and then stopped for 10yrs due to family commitments now I have just put down my 1st 2 batches this week and have been reading and chatting to the guy at the HBS he tells me stuff that I am surprised to hear and somewhat sceptical and seeing the Mythbusters are busy I thought I might run some of this stuff by you guys instead..lol

Ok the 1st thing he says don’t use sugar use dex , says its heaps better ( ive always used white sugar and have made some unbelievable beers in the past but he swears that dex is 100 times better ( more expensive to ).

What are your thoughts on this?

2nd one,

He tells me that no matter how much sugar I put in my wart that I will never get over 5% alcohol, he says that if I use a special yeast then I and have a perfect ferment I may get 0.1 or 0.2 over 5% ?
This seems strange to me as many many moons ago I have made some batches with 3kg + of sugar in them and a swear they were as potent as hell, was this my imagination that I was getting twice as hammed or the same amount of beers ?

3rd one

He tells me that making beer from total scratch ( not Kit ) is mostly a waste of time because the quality of kits these days is so good that the effort is hardly worth wile ?

4th one

He tells me that in a perfect world then you would brew lagers in cooler temps and Ales in hotter temps but he says that the yeast these days are usely so general purpose that it doesn’t make any dif as long as its between 18 and 26c

Id be really interested in hearing you guys thoughts on this stuff as all 4 of these contradict what I was brought up to believe.

Cheers Gym_

[Old Gil]

Does the bloke at the HBS even brew Doesn't sound like it, and if he does, I think he needs more practice.

I wouldn't use 100% dextrose, I usually use LDME and a little dex. The other stuff sounds like he's full of crap and just wants it to sound cheap as hell to do so you keep going back there

[Gym_]

Says hes been brewing for 20yrs

I didnt Argue with him as who I’m I to debate anything, out of all of thous the alcohol content has got me the most sceptical I was always told (15yrs ago mind you) that you could get well over 10% before yeast stops working right ?

Gym_

[gregb]

Point 1: If comparing only dex and sugar, then yes, dex is better than white sugar. It ferments (everything else being equal) cleaner and drier.

Point 2: Complete bulldust. How does he explain a variety of commercial strong ales at >8% ? My own brewhouse has produced some very easy drinking strong ales in the 9 to 11 % alc range.

Point 3: My opinion is that all grain beer is a journey, rather than a destination. The result is better, but it is up to the individual to determine what works best for them.

Point 4: There is a variety of yeasts on the market, with a variety of ideal temperatures. For your average kit yeast 18 to 25 C will be fine. For specialty yeasts refer to the manufacturers specs.

Welcome aboard. One final point in brewing is "Relax, don't worry, have a homebrew."

Cheers,
Greg

[Kevnlis]

Also if you had read this thread most if not all of those questions would have been answered for you. In more detail. It is a great place for people new to or just getting back into brewing to start!

[rwh]

Ok the 1st thing he says don’t use sugar use dex , says its heaps better

True. Sucrose promotes cidery flavours in your beer. Dex is better, but malt is the best. Sucrose = $1/kilo. Dextrose = $2/kilo. Malt extract = $6 a kilo. I still use all-malt. It's just that much better.

He tells me that no matter how much sugar I put in my wart that I will never get over 5% alcohol, he says that if I use a special yeast then I and have a perfect ferment I may get 0.1 or 0.2 over 5% ?

False. The alcohol tolerance of yeasts vary, but I'd be surprised if there are any yeasts out there that couldn't go up to 8%. There are some that'll get you up as high 18% (like Lalvin EC-1118).

He tells me that making beer from total scratch ( not Kit ) is mostly a waste of time because the quality of kits these days is so good that the effort is hardly worth wile ?

Debatable. A kit batch will take you 30 minutes. An all-grain batch will take you 6 hours. All things being equal, the all-grain batch will be better, but not 12 times better. It's the law of diminishing returns. Like getting higher marks in exams; to get 50% is easy. 60% probably twice as hard, 70% twice as hard again, etc.

You can still make great kit beers; there are other parts of your technique you should refine before you decide to move into AG. Some people never make the transition, it's more about the hobby and how much you want to learn than it is about the absolute quality of the beer.

He tells me that in a perfect world then you would brew lagers in cooler temps and Ales in hotter temps but he says that the yeast these days are usely so general purpose that it doesn’t make any dif as long as its between 18 and 26c

False. If you want to produce authentic lagers, you need to use a lager yeast, and brew at lager temperatures. Same with ales. Yeast and temperature control are two of the most under-rated and yet most important factors in beer making. You simply cannot make good beer without paying attention to them.

Lagers have a very clean flavour profile because they are brewed cool. This discourages the yeast from producing esters and other flavour compounds that are considered undesirable in lagers. You can still brew them warmer, but what you get probably won't taste like a proper lager. However, temperature stability is more important than absolute temperature because the yeast will acclimatise to whatever temperature they're at, and if it changes markedly they have to reacclimatise before they continue fermenting. While they are doing the acclimatisation they release metabolic byproducts that don't taste particularly good.

[warra48]

Does your HB guy sell grains, or is he just the usual HB shop interested only in selling kits and spirits etc?

Perhaps he is trying to discourage you from moving beyond what he can sell to you!

When I asked my local HB shop about brewing with grains, I was told that nobody does that these days, because it is too much trouble, and the kits are so good anyway etc etc etc.

I asked him about liquid yeasts once, and his eyes seemed to just glaze over. They don't even have a fridge for there stock of teabag hops or dry yeasts! He does sell some of the Brewcraft specialty grains, but that is all.

Is it any wonder I have since got all my supplies from Ross at CraftBrewer?

[Gym_]

Ok thanks for that ...
Sounds like I have got a lot of learning to do as I’m confused already..lol

Ok so malt extract is a better to use then dex as a replace for sugar thou rather expensive correct ? ,
and dex is a replacement for sugar thou only marginally more expensive ?
And sugar is sugar.. Unlike oils which ant oils lol
So what is LDME ?

And for my 2nd last confusing Q ..
if you say I can increase the alcohol by adding more sugar or replacement for sugar then what would be the theoretical max without having to change the yeast ? in say Kg 2 -3 – 4

Ok last one I pomes and ill buy yas a beer for the info..lol

Say I did want to make something radically strong to roll the eyes back in the head of one of my smartass mates I take it from reading these forms I would use wine yeast or Champaign yeast.
But If I do this then that is going to totally change the taste of the beer then wont it, seeing above and in these forums it is stated that it the different tipes of yeast that make the different tasting beer or part of.

OMG now I do need a beer,,lol

[StuTee]

Ok so malt extract is a better to use then dex as a replace for sugar thou rather expensive correct ? ,
and dex is a replacement for sugar thou only marginally more expensive ?
And sugar is sugar.. Unlike oils which ant oils lol
So what is LDME ?

LDME is Light Dry Malt Extract - bang it in instead of dextrose or sugar to get a nicer body (beer, not you)

Oh and dex isn't expensive, even at home brew store (hbs) it's pretty reasonable. Come to think of it, neither is LDME.

As for the others, i haven't used champagne yeast or gone for a strong one yet, so I'm useless

[KEG]

Say I did want to make something radically strong to roll the eyes back in the head of one of my smartass mates I take it from reading these forms I would use wine yeast or Champaign yeast.
But If I do this then that is going to totally change the taste of the beer then wont it, seeing above and in these forums it is stated that it the different tipes of yeast that make the different tasting beer or part of.

you can use beer yeast for as far as you can push it (i.e until it stops fermenting), then finish it with a pack of champagne yeast.

[rwh]

Ok so malt extract is a better to use then dex as a replace for sugar thou rather expensive correct ?

correct. Malt extract is better for a number of reasons. One, it tastes malty-good. Two, it has proteins and other nutrients in it that the yeast need for a healthy life. You don't want malnourished yeast because then they start to make bad-tasting stuff in your beer.

and dex is a replacement for sugar thou only marginally more expensive ?

Yup. It's actually pure glucose (called dextrose monohydrate, actually, because the crystals include two glucoses for every water molecule). Normal sugar is sucrose which is a glucose and a fructose joined together. It's the process of inversion (where the yeast detach the fructose and glucose molecules from each other) that is thought to cause the cidery-tasting byproducts.

So what is LDME ?

Light Dry Malt Extract. Have a look at the Common brewing terms and acronyms sticky.

if you say I can increase the alcohol by adding more sugar or replacement for sugar then what would be the theoretical max without having to change the yeast ? in say Kg 2 -3 – 4

This probably depends on whether you want something to taste good. It's not quite as simple as just bunging in more sugar, there are a few things that you need to consider if you want to be able to actually enjoy drinking it.
- you need to keep the hops and malt in balance. Adding extra malt makes a brew sweeter. Adding hops balances the sweetness with bitterness.
- at higher alcohol levels, the yeast begin to become stressed. They start to make some higher-order alcohols (taste like paint thinner) along with other strange-tasting byproducts. So you need to do what you can to keep your yeast healthy and happy despite the huge job you're giving them. Either pitch extra yeast (so 2 or 3 sachets) or make a nice healthy starter. Also, try to keep your fermentation temperature around the lower end of the range (say 18°C) to avoid some of the byproducts.
- You can boost alcohol by adding dextrose to beer without markedly affecting flavour. However, once the amount of simple sugars in the wort gets above 20%, you can start to taste them (or their fermentation byproducts). Also, increasing alcohol in a beer is not without its own affect on flavour. Alcohol increases the perception of "dryness" in a drink. It also contributes a "warm" feeling as you swallow it. So if you think you're going to be able to pass off a 12% beer as a 4% beer, forget it. You can't.

If I were you, I'd look at existing recipes for strong ales. Start with Belgian ales, barley wines and traditional IPAs. Go buy yourself a bottle of each and see what you like. Otherwise you'll end up tipping 23L of disgusting alcohol-water down the drain. Even at 8%, trust me when I say your mates won't know what hit them.

If you want to fiddle with the amount of sugar you're adding versus the alcohol content, have a look at this calculator.

Also, check out the millennium ale project.

[Gym_]

FANTASTIC !!! thank you all very much.