Clone Brews

[Tipsy]

I've made pilsners with all Saaz and with Saaz and NB.

I reckon the ones with all Saaz are a lot better.

Don't shoot me, it's just my opinion (even though I'm right )

[Kevnlis]

How long was the NB boiled for? It does have a bit higher cohumulone level (up to 8% more) but I would not think it would be detectable to the palette. The difference in aroma should not matter if boiled for 45 minutes or more (to be sure the majority of the oils were boiled away).

[Trizza]

I'm going to make another attempt at Urquell, using a lot of the information from the contentious conversation above. I decided to keep it simple, sticking with just malt extract and Saaz hops, with the Wyeast 2001 to give it the unique flavour. My last attempt on the style had too much caravienna and caramunich, and northern brewer hops.
New Plan: Just keep it simple!

1.50 Kg LLME
1.20 Kg LDME
90g Saaz @ 60 mins
25g Saaz @ 40 mins
20g Saaz @ 25 mins
Yeast wyeast 2001 (Urquell)
23L

I'll make a boil with 500g of the LDME to make utilization high with the low alpha acid Saaz. I'll also reduce the quantities of the Sazz if the A/A is higher than 3%.

What do you guys think?

Trizza

[Kevnlis]

500g boiled in what volume of water? What will the batch volume be? I would skip the 40 min addition and make it a 20 min addition, then make the 25 min addition a dry hopping in secondary or the keg.

[drsmurto]

Tsk, tsk Kev. Have you read none of my posts or links?

No hop addition in urquell after 25 mins.

Having said that, i have in the past been guilty of doing exactly as you suggested (flameout, dry hop) and was not disappointed with the result but if we are calling it a clone...........

[Kevnlis]

Tsk, tsk Kev. Have you read none of my posts or links?

No hop addition in urquell after 25 mins.

Having said that, i have in the past been guilty of doing exactly as you suggested (flameout, dry hop) and was not disappointed with the result but if we are calling it a clone...........

I missed that bit sorry!

A 40 min addition is useless IMHO, it will not add flavour, and it will be inefficient in it's bittering.

Trizza, if you want to tell us your boil and batch volume we should be able to calculate the two additions for you fairly precisely!

[James L]

Speaking of books....

I managed to pick up a few: "Brewing Classic Styles" by John Palmer and J Zainasheff? i hear its quite gurd. I also bought a text book called "Brewing" by Michael J Lewis. cost 50 bucks, but i hear its not bad either. managed to get that clone brews too for 10 bucks and "Designing great beers" by Ray Daniels all courtesy of Amazon.com... i think i managed to save myself about 70 bucks compared to if i was to get them in Aust. and that includes the freight.

I'll tell you if they're any good... (they'll be here in 2 weeks).

[Kevnlis]

"Designing great beers" by Ray Daniels is a jem! Great choice there, not familiar with any of the others.

[Trizza]

500g boiled in what volume of water? What will the batch volume be? I would skip the 40 min addition and make it a 20 min addition, then make the 25 min addition a dry hopping in secondary or the keg.

I don’t have a pot large enough or a wort chiller to boil up all my malt so my process involves using 500g LDME in about 4-5L of water to get the OG around 1040. this gives good utilization. after completing boil, I add the remaining malt and top up with water, in this case to 23L.
this process has worked well for my past 5 brews.

I think drsmurto has got the right idea, with no hops to be added after 25mins. so I’ll be sticking to my previous schedule above.

Trizza

[drsmurto]

I'm going to make another attempt at Urquell, using a lot of the information from the contentious conversation above. I decided to keep it simple, sticking with just malt extract and Saaz hops, with the Wyeast 2001 to give it the unique flavour. My last attempt on the style had too much caravienna and caramunich, and northern brewer hops.
New Plan: Just keep it simple!

1.50 Kg LLME
1.20 Kg LDME
90g Saaz @ 60 mins
25g Saaz @ 40 mins
20g Saaz @ 25 mins
Yeast wyeast 2001 (Urquell)
23L

I'll make a boil with 500g of the LDME to make utilization high with the low alpha acid Saaz. I'll also reduce the quantities of the Sazz if the A/A is higher than 3%.

What do you guys think?

Trizza

Sorry to confuse you mate but i have punched your recipe into beersmith and a few issues have arisen.

Firstly, for 23L i get 3.7% abv. Way too low. Pilsner Urquell is 4.4% so increase the LDME to 1.7kg.

And as far as your hopping goes, i wouldnt bother with the 40 min addition either. I have in the past but my current thinking is that its not the most useful time. 30 min or later for flavour. 60 min or higher for bittering.

To get to the 40 IBUs of urquell with saaz you need 130g @ 60 mins. This is a huge waste of such a nice hop. After 60 mins it will contribute 0 flavour and aroma. I would use northern brewer or any other high AA% hop that gives a clean bittering.

Somehting like this would be my suggestion

2.90 kg Extra Light Dry Extract (5.9 EBC) Dry Extract 100.00 % or 1.7kg LDME and 1.5 LLME - whatever you prefer here.
35.00 gm Northern Brewer [9.10 %] (60 min) Hops 34.8 IBU - If you are insisting on using only Saaz then you need 130g to get the same IBUs
25.00 gm Saaz [2.50 %] (25 min) Hops 4.7 IBU

And then you can either add some Saaz at flameout and/or dry hopping but as i said before, its not how urquell is made.

Your beer. Your choice. This is only my 2 cents mate.

Cheers
DrSmurto

[Trizza]

Thanks for the help

I'm keen to make it an all-saaz brew, so it’ll be the 130g, then the 25g at the times mentioned below.
I'll also increase the LDME as well as to your recommendations and might go with:
3.00 Kg LLME
0.50 Kg LDME
=====> does this roughly equate to 2.90 Kg LDME?

I've managed to get a massive fridge, so I can keep this brew at a very constant 8 degrees for the duration which should help allot. I’ll still be using the 2001 yeast.

I'm also aware that the water in the area in which urquell is made has very few minerals, so using purified water might be a good idea also. Not sure which kind though.
Any ideas on a place in Melbourne where I could pick up some clean/purified/deionised or distilled water?

Trizza

[drsmurto]

Melbourne water is already very soft so i would stick with that.

If you are doing all extract brews and the odd partial i would encourage you to download Beersmith. Its free for 30 days and at $30 US its the only program i have ever paid for.

As for the malts - 3kg liquid and 0.5 kg dry gives you 4.5% so go with that.

[Trizza]

Melbourne water is already very soft so i would stick with that.

If you are doing all extract brews and the odd partial i would encourage you to download Beersmith. Its free for 30 days and at $30 US its the only program i have ever paid for.

As for the malts - 3kg liquid and 0.5 kg dry gives you 4.5% so go with that.

Thanks mate, i'll grab beersmith tonight. I cant access much atm, being at work.
Finding a crack for it wouldnt be too hard either...

Trizza

[drsmurto]

Melbourne water is already very soft so i would stick with that.

If you are doing all extract brews and the odd partial i would encourage you to download Beersmith. Its free for 30 days and at $30 US its the only program i have ever paid for.

As for the malts - 3kg liquid and 0.5 kg dry gives you 4.5% so go with that.

Thanks mate, i'll grab beersmith tonight. I cant access much atm, being at work.
Finding a crack for it wouldnt be too hard either...

Trizza

I'll pretend i didnt read that......

[warra48]

Melbourne water is already very soft so i would stick with that.

If you are doing all extract brews and the odd partial i would encourage you to download Beersmith. Its free for 30 days and at $30 US its the only program i have ever paid for.

As for the malts - 3kg liquid and 0.5 kg dry gives you 4.5% so go with that.

Well, after 7 AG brews I decided yesterday I would finally pay for Beersmith. It was only $19.95US. Good value I think.
I had tried both ProMash and Beersmith on the trial versions. I like the fact that Beersmith seems to continue to update its software, whereas Promash seemingly hasn't done so for yonks.

[Zuma]

Made the Urquel from the book.

Took some of the advice and used Perle as my bittering hop.

About to rack.

[Kevnlis]

snip.. whereas Promash seemingly hasn't done so for yonks.

Unfortunately Warra this is due to the fact that the creators wife has terminal cancer. He has promised to continue his work on the program and will be releasing an update eventually...

[James L]

Zuma,

I've made a nice pilsner with perle as bittering... its pretty darn diddly good. And i finally got my books from amazon...

looking at the clone brews, I'm looking forward to emulating the Fosters. HA just kidding (but there are some good recipies).

I also delved into the libary catalogue at work and found that they have two copies of brewing microbiology by Preist and Campbell which i'm slowly getting through.. Bloody good read, but you need the biochem/microbiological background otherwise its straight over the head. I especially like how it relates to the brewing industry. They deal with some large litrage.

[gregb]

**Off Topic**

A string of OT stuff about cross posting sprang up here and has been removed. The cross posted thread continues here.

Cheers,
Greg