Does it make much difference to the yeast flavour/characteristics depending on what type of fermentable you use in your starter? For example if I use table sugar (cheap) as compared to malt extract (not cheap), what effect (if any) will this have on the yeast?
Cheers all..
Yeast starter question
Re: Yeast starter question
From what i have read on this topic it's not a good idea to use straight table sugar.
You want to build it up on the same type of sugars you want them to ferment in.
Having never used sugar in a starter i am not sure what the end result would be like. The theory is that you build up yeast that will happily ferment the simple sugars (in table sugar) but struggle with the more complex sugars found in malt extract. If that is correct you might have a sluggish ferment, it might not ferment out to your expected FG and you might have stressed yeast which produce off flavours.
You want to build it up on the same type of sugars you want them to ferment in.
Having never used sugar in a starter i am not sure what the end result would be like. The theory is that you build up yeast that will happily ferment the simple sugars (in table sugar) but struggle with the more complex sugars found in malt extract. If that is correct you might have a sluggish ferment, it might not ferment out to your expected FG and you might have stressed yeast which produce off flavours.
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squirt in the turns
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Re: Yeast starter question
To add to the doc's advice, I would avoid using simple sugars for starters as they do not contain the minerals and other nutrients the yeast really like to have when they're multiplying (which is the point of making a starter) and fermenting your beer. Malt extract contains these nutrients. Fresh wort that you've extracted from grain yourself probably contains even more.
See here for a good explanation.
In addition to using malt in starter wort, many brewers chuck some yeast nutrient in too. You can buy this, or just boil up a pack of yeast (kit yeast sachets contain nutrient) with the malt.
See here for a good explanation.
In addition to using malt in starter wort, many brewers chuck some yeast nutrient in too. You can buy this, or just boil up a pack of yeast (kit yeast sachets contain nutrient) with the malt.
Re: Yeast starter question
Thanks gents, makes a lot of sense.
Squirt I have read that about boiling up a pack of kit yeast can help. However if you boil it doesn't this affect (kill) the nutrients)?
Squirt I have read that about boiling up a pack of kit yeast can help. However if you boil it doesn't this affect (kill) the nutrients)?
Re: Yeast starter question
The nutrients are chemicals and boiling doesn't kill them
Re: Yeast starter question
Hi, I too have a question. I thought seeing as this thread is appropriately titled, why not bump.
I understand the theory behind stepping up in size when making a starter. You keep the yest always multiplying at an exponential rate, making the process quicker but also producing better yeast.
But every tutorial and article says to step up in separate, increasingly sized containers(10ml, 200ml, 1L, 4L). Why not just use a large container and step up by adding more extract each time? This would save on sterilization and reduce the risk of contamination wouldn't it?
Is this a reasonable method or is there a reason for using an appropriately sized container?
I understand the theory behind stepping up in size when making a starter. You keep the yest always multiplying at an exponential rate, making the process quicker but also producing better yeast.
But every tutorial and article says to step up in separate, increasingly sized containers(10ml, 200ml, 1L, 4L). Why not just use a large container and step up by adding more extract each time? This would save on sterilization and reduce the risk of contamination wouldn't it?
Is this a reasonable method or is there a reason for using an appropriately sized container?
Cheers,
Gilly
Gilly
Re: Yeast starter question
I'm not sure about the size of containers mentioned as 10ml, 200ml, 1L, 4L. A 10ml container is mighty small!
I think those steps probably refer to the size of the wort in growing yeast from a slant, which only contains a tiny amount of initial yeast.
I don't use slants. This is what I do.
For a new Wyeast smakpak or a White Labs tube, I will pitch that straight into a 3 to 4 litres of wort and ferment it out. That seems to double or triple the amount of yeast I start with. I'll crash chill it, and discard almost all the starter beer. I'll save some test tubes of the resulting slurry for future use, and I'll pitch the rest into my beer.
If I'm building up one of my saved test tubes, I'll start with about 500 mil of wort, build it up, then add a further 3 to 3.5 litres of wort for my final build up.
Again, I'll crash chill that and pitch only the slurry.
I use only a 1 and 5 litre vessel for my build ups. Nothing too complicated. I don't have a stir plate, but for the first 6 hours or so after pitching I'll regularly hit the wort with my airstone to aerate it and keep the yeast suspended.
The use of different sized containers is probably to faciltate the use of a stir plate. For example, 200ml of wort in a 5 litre container would not work too well.
What you propose, to use a large container and gradually adding more extract each time, is feasible. As I understand it, this is what the yeast manufacturers do to get maximum growth of their yeast. However, they use a somewhat more complex growth medium than we do, and they are able to be very precise about their sanitation. That's not always the case in a homebrew situation.
By the way, I don't believe using straight LDME necessarily gives you the best growth medium. The wort for LDME is mashed at quite hight temperatures (probably over 70ºC), as it is designed to be augmented with sugars etc to produce a normal fermentable wort. That's why I use a mix of 2/3rds LDME and 1/3rd Dextrose, to a SG of around 1.040 for my build ups.
I think those steps probably refer to the size of the wort in growing yeast from a slant, which only contains a tiny amount of initial yeast.
I don't use slants. This is what I do.
For a new Wyeast smakpak or a White Labs tube, I will pitch that straight into a 3 to 4 litres of wort and ferment it out. That seems to double or triple the amount of yeast I start with. I'll crash chill it, and discard almost all the starter beer. I'll save some test tubes of the resulting slurry for future use, and I'll pitch the rest into my beer.
If I'm building up one of my saved test tubes, I'll start with about 500 mil of wort, build it up, then add a further 3 to 3.5 litres of wort for my final build up.
Again, I'll crash chill that and pitch only the slurry.
I use only a 1 and 5 litre vessel for my build ups. Nothing too complicated. I don't have a stir plate, but for the first 6 hours or so after pitching I'll regularly hit the wort with my airstone to aerate it and keep the yeast suspended.
The use of different sized containers is probably to faciltate the use of a stir plate. For example, 200ml of wort in a 5 litre container would not work too well.
What you propose, to use a large container and gradually adding more extract each time, is feasible. As I understand it, this is what the yeast manufacturers do to get maximum growth of their yeast. However, they use a somewhat more complex growth medium than we do, and they are able to be very precise about their sanitation. That's not always the case in a homebrew situation.
By the way, I don't believe using straight LDME necessarily gives you the best growth medium. The wort for LDME is mashed at quite hight temperatures (probably over 70ºC), as it is designed to be augmented with sugars etc to produce a normal fermentable wort. That's why I use a mix of 2/3rds LDME and 1/3rd Dextrose, to a SG of around 1.040 for my build ups.
Re: Yeast starter question
why? wouldnt one simply buy some DAP and add this to there brew
it is after all an excepted standard yeast nutrient
cheers speester
it is after all an excepted standard yeast nutrient
cheers speester