Hi all,
I brewed a partial the other day with 2kg of grain plus some added malt and hops.
It was a 'kitchen' type mash where I soaked 2kg of grain in 6 ltrs of water @ 66 degrees for 60 min and then 'sparged' it (though it was really just straining it) into another pot. I then added a kilo of LDM and a kilo of BE2, added 250g of Crystal malt and steeped 25g of fuggles for 15 and 25g of Goldings for 10 min (worked out the SG and the amount of water in BeerSmith to get the IBU). I came out with a gravity of 1.047 which made me track back the fermentables to see how much malt I got from the grain.
I figured that I should get around 1kilo of liquid malt out of the grain though once I worked backwards as to what I put in the brew it figured only around 1/2 of a kilo of liquid malt out of 2kg! This is only a 25% rate of conversion which seems very low...is the kitchen method just really inefficient?
I was told that this would still add lots of fresh grain and malt flavours over the usual K+K method but is there anything I could do to get this ratio higher without going to a proper AG system?
Grain is cheap ($3 a kilo) so even if I used 4kg and only got out 1kg and it, it will still be cost effective if the beer really showed the difference.
Cheers,
BrewHaus
Partial query
Re: Partial query
Maybe the 2 kilos of grain was unmalted?
Also, what do you mean you steeped the hops with the crystal malt?
Also, what do you mean you steeped the hops with the crystal malt?
Re: Partial query
It was Joe White malted trad ale grain (cracked) which Dave from Greensborough home brewing said would be ok for kitchen mashing.
I did the crystal by itself and then boiled it for 15min after straining and added it to the main wort. I bittered the hops with just water and LDM according to Beer Smith ratios and then also added this to the main wort.
So all up I did the grain in one pot, the crystal in another and the hops+LDM in another....I then combined them all after final boils/straining (if they needed a little more boiling to kill bugs etc) and cooled it all in a sink of cold water and then topped it up to 21 litres in the fermenter.
I did the crystal by itself and then boiled it for 15min after straining and added it to the main wort. I bittered the hops with just water and LDM according to Beer Smith ratios and then also added this to the main wort.
So all up I did the grain in one pot, the crystal in another and the hops+LDM in another....I then combined them all after final boils/straining (if they needed a little more boiling to kill bugs etc) and cooled it all in a sink of cold water and then topped it up to 21 litres in the fermenter.
Re: Partial query
I would have to guess your temp was off then. What exact method/equipment did you use for the main mash of the 2 kilos of ale malt?
Re: Partial query
I had a candy thermometer constantly in the mash and it maintained 65-67 degrees for the whole 60 min with no deviation between these two points.
The method: I heated 6 litres of water (3 litres per kilo ratio) to 67 degrees in a 15 litre pot and threw the 2 kilos in for the 60 min.
Then strained out the grain using a fine strainer and finally boiled the water for 15 min after the grain was completely strained (to kill any bugs).
Should I get more extraction than 25% using this method or is this about what I can expect?
The method: I heated 6 litres of water (3 litres per kilo ratio) to 67 degrees in a 15 litre pot and threw the 2 kilos in for the 60 min.
Then strained out the grain using a fine strainer and finally boiled the water for 15 min after the grain was completely strained (to kill any bugs).
Should I get more extraction than 25% using this method or is this about what I can expect?
Re: Partial query
25% is extremely low! It does sound like you did everything right though. Perhaps your gravity reading is incorrect? Did you take it at a temperature above what it is calibrated for?
Re: Partial query
Three things spring to mind:
1. As Kevnlis pointed out, hydrometers are temperature dependent. Most of those we get at the HB shops are calibrated for 20ºC. If the temperature of the wort you are measuring is significantly higher, then you need to adjust it. For example, a reading of SG 1.040 at 50ºC has a corrected SG of 1.050 at 20ºC.
You can do the adjustment with a brewing program such as BeerSmith. I think there are also specific tools you can download.
2. I wonder how efficient the drain sparge of the mashed grains was. There may have been quite a lot of goodies left behind?
Can you describe the exact process you used to do your initial drain, the sparge, and the quantity and temperature of your sparge water?
Did you stir the grains at the end of the mash and before draining and sparging?
3. Inaccurate hydrometer.
Probably unlikely, but possibe if the paper inside the hydrometer with the scales has got knocked about somehow.
1. As Kevnlis pointed out, hydrometers are temperature dependent. Most of those we get at the HB shops are calibrated for 20ºC. If the temperature of the wort you are measuring is significantly higher, then you need to adjust it. For example, a reading of SG 1.040 at 50ºC has a corrected SG of 1.050 at 20ºC.
You can do the adjustment with a brewing program such as BeerSmith. I think there are also specific tools you can download.
2. I wonder how efficient the drain sparge of the mashed grains was. There may have been quite a lot of goodies left behind?
Can you describe the exact process you used to do your initial drain, the sparge, and the quantity and temperature of your sparge water?
Did you stir the grains at the end of the mash and before draining and sparging?
3. Inaccurate hydrometer.
Probably unlikely, but possibe if the paper inside the hydrometer with the scales has got knocked about somehow.
Re: Partial query
It sounds like you haven't actually sparged it so you've missed a lot of the goodies in the grain. 
After you strain the first lot of liquid out, you need to wash the grain in another 4-5 litres of 75-80 degree water, stir and let sit for a few minutes then strain again. This is called a batch sparge and if you do 3 sparges it will give you about 12 litres of wort and will extract a lot more of the fermentables out of the grain.
After you strain the first lot of liquid out, you need to wash the grain in another 4-5 litres of 75-80 degree water, stir and let sit for a few minutes then strain again. This is called a batch sparge and if you do 3 sparges it will give you about 12 litres of wort and will extract a lot more of the fermentables out of the grain.
Re: Partial query
Hmm...I didn't actually re-wash the grain after I drained it though I did stir it (really well) a number of times while it was steeping. As this was my first time with grain (and only my 5th brew) I wasn't exactly sure with the process of adding grain into the brew using a noob and kitchen friendly method. I had read somewhere that most of the extraction occurred in the first 30 min into the wort which made me think that I was still going to get alot of malt from the way I did it...though this obviously is not be the case and could have noticably contributed to the low extraction level.
I'll make sure I re-wash a time or two with 70 degree water after the initial straining and see how this affects my extraction level.
The hydrometer was actually brand new as my wife broke my last one while cleaning it...so it could be that.
I'll check it with a brew that's nearly at the end of it's ferment tomorrow (the brew should be around 1015-1025 so if it's noticably out the error should jump out pretty quickly). Is tap water suposed to read 1.000?
The 21 litre wort was originally checked at 26 degrees so the 1047 SG may have been slightly off but I guess this slight temp adjustment may only have added a small amount of additional malt to the total fermentables.
I'll definately have another go as grain seems to be the way toward the best beer I can make and it makes an already great hobby even more interesting.
If I could up the efficiency with proper sparging, would it be possible to make the switch eventually to just grain malt and not LDM or extract using this 'kitchen' type method...or do you have to have the complex AG setup to do this?
Thanks for everyone's help.
I'll make sure I re-wash a time or two with 70 degree water after the initial straining and see how this affects my extraction level.
The hydrometer was actually brand new as my wife broke my last one while cleaning it...so it could be that.
I'll check it with a brew that's nearly at the end of it's ferment tomorrow (the brew should be around 1015-1025 so if it's noticably out the error should jump out pretty quickly). Is tap water suposed to read 1.000?
The 21 litre wort was originally checked at 26 degrees so the 1047 SG may have been slightly off but I guess this slight temp adjustment may only have added a small amount of additional malt to the total fermentables.
I'll definately have another go as grain seems to be the way toward the best beer I can make and it makes an already great hobby even more interesting.
If I could up the efficiency with proper sparging, would it be possible to make the switch eventually to just grain malt and not LDM or extract using this 'kitchen' type method...or do you have to have the complex AG setup to do this?
Thanks for everyone's help.
Re: Partial query
Tap water will be close to 1.000, so check your hydrometer in that. However, as you say, it is new, so more than likely it's OK.
SG 1.047 at 26ºC is SG 1.048 at 20ºC.
I'd up the temperature of your sparge water to about 80ºC before you add it to your grains. The temperature of the mash will drop back slightly from the 80ºC once it's mixed in. The slightly higher temperatures will make the sugars more liquid allowing you to drain more of them from the grain. The same principle as warm versus cold honey. The former is much more liquid.
Brewing AG can be as complicated or as simple as you like. It's not really that difficult a process. All you are doing is making a grain porridge, holding at about 65 to 68ºC for an hour, draining, and rinsing (sparging). The drained liquid is boiled, and hops are added during the boil. You cool it all, drain to the fermenter, pitch the yeast, control the temperature if you can, and a week or two later you have beer.
It's preferable to boil the full volume of your wort in the one pot, but nothing to stop you splitting it into two boils, and recombining them in the fermenter.
SG 1.047 at 26ºC is SG 1.048 at 20ºC.
I'd up the temperature of your sparge water to about 80ºC before you add it to your grains. The temperature of the mash will drop back slightly from the 80ºC once it's mixed in. The slightly higher temperatures will make the sugars more liquid allowing you to drain more of them from the grain. The same principle as warm versus cold honey. The former is much more liquid.
Brewing AG can be as complicated or as simple as you like. It's not really that difficult a process. All you are doing is making a grain porridge, holding at about 65 to 68ºC for an hour, draining, and rinsing (sparging). The drained liquid is boiled, and hops are added during the boil. You cool it all, drain to the fermenter, pitch the yeast, control the temperature if you can, and a week or two later you have beer.
It's preferable to boil the full volume of your wort in the one pot, but nothing to stop you splitting it into two boils, and recombining them in the fermenter.
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Trough Lolly
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Re: Partial query
Congrats on getting into using grains to improve the quality of your beer. Using grains after only a few batches is impressive - you'll mark this one down to experience and move on!
As the feedback suggests, you need to sparge the mashed grains in the colander. Some time ago a wrote a lengthy post on partial mashing in the kitchen. If you're interested, click here to read more...
Don't oversparge the grains as you risk extracting undesirable flavour and haze compounds in your quest to scramble another few mils of wort from the grains.
Cheers,
TL
As the feedback suggests, you need to sparge the mashed grains in the colander. Some time ago a wrote a lengthy post on partial mashing in the kitchen. If you're interested, click here to read more...
Don't oversparge the grains as you risk extracting undesirable flavour and haze compounds in your quest to scramble another few mils of wort from the grains.
Cheers,
TL
