Poor efficiency

[BierMeister]

I brewed a Schwarzbier yesterday according to the following receipe which is from my Koestrizer post in the receipe section. I converted the grain and hop weights from an american forum post (from Jamil).
The following is the receipe which I followed to the letter;

23Litre receipe for Schwarzbier/Koestrizer clone
Anticipated OG: 1054
Anticipated IBU: 30
Pre boil volume: 29L
Boil time: 90mins

Mash at 68C single infusion mash.

Grain bill:
3.2Kg Munich Malt
1.8Kg Pilsner Malt
230gm Crystal Malt
230gm Chocolate Malt
115gm Roasted Barley
115gm Carafa II

Hops:
23gm Hallertau @ begining of boil
14gm Hallertau @ last 20mins
14gm Hallertau @ last 1 min

The end result after boil and cool down was a reading of 1047 with a volume of 24L which is only 1L over and can not account for the difference surely. Obviously my efficiency is out or the receipe was wrong. (I'm guessing my efficiency is to blame as I double checked the weight conversions).
My grain was crushed by my HBS (and I have never had problems with their crush before). I mashed at 68C for 90 mins with untreated Adelaide water. The ratio was 13L water for the grain bill of 5.69Kg of grain (ratio of 2.28L/Kg). I stired the mash every 30 mins or so and the temp only dropped to 66C but was brought back to 68C. I fly sparged as per normal with 80C water taking about 1-1.5hours to complete 29L which I boiled 90 mins as per the receipe resulting in 24L.

By my calculations my efficiency is a poor 64.5% even calculating out the extra litre I got an efficiency of 67.3%. I am used to getting about 80%. The resultant wort was good with great mouthfeel and will make a very nice beer with less alcohol (this does not bother me, but not knowing what I did wrong does). Has anyone any ideas or see anything I missed. I have never had such bad efficiency.

[drsmurto]

Is the water ratio you used (2.28L/kg) what you normally use? This is a much thicker mash than i use (2.8L/kg).

Cant see anything that stands out.

[warra48]

I don't think it is the water / mash ratio. I regularly use 2.3 litres per kg, and achieve over 90% efficiency into the kettle.

Your post didn't tell us what the gravity was pre-boil, so we don't know what your efficiency was into the boiler. However, as you managed to get 24 litres into your fermenter after 90 minutes boil from 29 litres, there don't appear to be any great losses to trub and kettle dead space etc.

I agree 65% brewhouse efficiency is a bit low, but I can't see any obvious reasons from your post as to why this should be so.
However, I batch sparge using a mash out and 2 sparges, whereas you fly sparge.
Are you sure you didn't have any channeling to account for perhaps some goodies left behind?

[Trough Lolly]

IMO, there are plenty of reasons why the efficiency was low - and incidentally, that has feck all to do with making a good beer...

In this instance you may have had a problem with the sparge. Your mash temp and ratios are fine, but you can easily suffer if you don't get all the converted sugars into the kettle even if your doing a fly sparge. It sounds so simple, but is often the cause of our efficiency losses. What brand of munich malt did you use? I know that Bairds munich, for example, is a notoriously poor converter but has a great flavour contribution.

I'd also double check the recipe calcs - getting a post boil OG of 1.054 from a 23L wort with 5kg of base malt plus speciality grains is a tad optomistic!

Cheers,
TL

[BierMeister]

Is the water ratio you used (2.28L/kg) what you normally use? This is a much thicker mash than i use (2..

Cant see anything that stands out.

Thanks Dr. I normally do around 2-2.5L per kg of malt, but usually end up with more due to adding hot water to keep the temp up. Maybe 3-4L. I didn't do that this time as I mashed in a pot and kept it at temp in the oven. Was quite accurate with holding the temp. I don't know if it would have that much effect as supposidly having a lower water to grain ratio helps get a better efficiency.

Your post didn't tell us what the gravity was pre-boil, so we don't know what your efficiency was into the boiler. However, as you managed to get 24 litres into your fermenter after 90 minutes boil from 29 litres, there don't appear to be any great losses to trub and kettle dead space etc.

I agree 65% brewhouse efficiency is a bit low, but I can't see any obvious reasons from your post as to why this should be so.
However, I batch sparge using a mash out and 2 sparges, whereas you fly sparge.
Are you sure you didn't have any channeling to account for perhaps some goodies left behind?

I don't have a hydrometer for 60C so don't ever take gravity pre boil. I also don't iodine test for starch, but rely on my 90 min mash + sparge time that it would fully mash out. Never had a problem before, but these are the things I'm looking at now. The channeling is possible I guess, but I'm not too sure as I sparge very slowly to avoid such affects.

In this instance you may have had a problem with the sparge. Your mash temp and ratios are fine, but you can easily suffer if you don't get all the converted sugars into the kettle even if your doing a fly sparge. It sounds so simple, but is often the cause of our efficiency losses. What brand of munich malt did you use? I know that Bairds munich, for example, is a notoriously poor converter but has a great flavour contribution.

I'd also double check the recipe calcs - getting a post boil OG of 1.054 from a 23L wort with 5kg of base malt plus speciality grains is a tad optomistic!

Cheers,
TL

All the malts (including the Munich) were from Joe White, except the Carafa II and Pilsner Malt which were Wyermann. I also double checked the receipes calculations with Max Yield being 1072.9 (I used Palmers table for the malt extraction http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-4-1.html). This means I'd only need an efficeincy of 74% to get a OG of 1054. Now I know that there is some better info out there as far as details into these things so if you guys could have a look at the receipe and see if these calc's are out for what ever reason and let me know.

I'm also thinking that I may need to start looking into water chemistry as I plan to make this autumn 'Stout Autumn' (I've trademarked this ) to get better dark beer results.

Cheers for the feedback so far.

[Neil]

In this instance you may have had a problem with the sparge. Your mash temp and ratios are fine, but you can easily suffer if you don't get all the converted sugars into the kettle even if your doing a fly sparge. It sounds so simple, but is often the cause of our efficiency losses. What brand of munich malt did you use? I know that Bairds munich, for example, is a notoriously poor converter but has a great flavour contribution.

Sorry for jumping onto this posting again but I have a related question. I've just done my 8th AG and am rapt with the little (and big) improvements I am making in my brewing process. The process has become less chaotic and more satisfying with each brew and extra bit of gear added or tweak made... However, although I feel that I getting a better feel for how my set-up works, I still seem to be down about 2-3 litres on target volumes (into the boiler). I use the 'keep cool' 36 litre round mash tun with steel braid. I've taken to upping the ratio of mash water to grist to 2.9l/kg but still ended up 2 litres down into the boiler. Overall, I got an efficiency of 75% so I'm not complaining, but I'm wondering if I should move to a genuine false bottom - would this help get an extra litre or so out of the mash?

And I greatly appreciate TL's comments here on efficiency. Some of my earlier beers were a bit disappointing if you just look at the numbers (i.e. efficiency) but they have been the loveliest beers I have ever made . With the promise of more and better to come!

Cheers

Neil

[Goofinder]

However, although I feel that I getting a better feel for how my set-up works, I still seem to be down about 2-3 litres on target volumes (into the boiler). I use the 'keep cool' 36 litre round mash tun with steel braid. I've taken to upping the ratio of mash water to grist to 2.9l/kg but still ended up 2 litres down into the boiler. Overall, I got an efficiency of 75% so I'm not complaining, but I'm wondering if I should move to a genuine false bottom - would this help get an extra litre or so out of the mash?

Are you taking into account the dead space in your mash tun? In my 44L rectangular esky with SS braid that worked out to be 3.5L. I found that after measuring that and adding it in I'm getting pretty close to my target volumes. It still doesn't make 100% sense to me because surely the grain and the water it has absorbed fills up (at least some of) that 3.5L, but the numbers work out in the end.

Going to a false bottom might get you a bit more liquid out if there's a pickup tube to remove some of the dead space, but I'm happy with the 75-80% I get with the braid for now.

[Neil]

Are you taking into account the dead space in your mash tun?

Thanks goofinder. I guess the short answer is 'no'. I have to confess to ignorance here - what is the 'dead space' in my mash tun? I'm a lecturer in geography, so this sounds serious....

Cheers

Neil

[Neil]

Are you taking into account the dead space in your mash tun?

Thanks goofinder. I guess the short answer is 'no'. I have to confess to ignorance here - what is the 'dead space' in my mash tun? I'm a lecturer in geography, so this sounds serious....

Cheers

Neil

Ok. Have studied up on 'dead space'. Some unkind people would refer to the hollow between my ears as 'dead space' but that's another matter... I hadn't factored this into my BeerSmith software and I'm not sure how much I should allow. As I say, I have a Keepcold 36 litre round cooler and ss braid. Any good guesses?

Cheers

Neil

[warra48]

Fill your mash tun with a few litres of water.
Drain it off as if you were sparging.
Measure the quantity left in the mash tun.
Enter that into BeerSmith.

[Neil]

Fill your mash tun with a few litres of water.
Drain it off as if you were sparging.
Measure the quantity left in the mash tun.
Enter that into BeerSmith.

Thanks Warra - will do. Much appreciated.

Neil

[Neil]

Hi all

I'm in a bit of a quandary. Over the last few brews I have used Maris Otter malt, crushed it myself, and got c. 80% efficiency. Great, I thought, I've got my system sussed out and working ok. Over the past two weekends I made a Kolsch and an altbier/dopplesticke (now more the former than the latter due to poor efficiency) using JWM (pilsener last week, munich yesterday) and have really struggled to get above 65% efficiency. No great drama, except of course it potentially throws out the balance of the beer. Has anyone else had a problem with JWM? I mashed for 90 mins. both times and batch sparged, using the same methods as previous brews. I'm starting to think I may have to crush finer and use a stepped mash the next time I use JWM.

Neil

[Kevnlis]

What was the pH of the mash in each case? Did you make any changes other than the grain used (ie. time, temp, water adjustments, etc.)? I have only ever had problems with JW malt in VERY high graivty brews, ie. 1.090 range.

[Neil]

What was the pH of the mash in each case? Did you make any changes other than the grain used (ie. time, temp, water adjustments, etc.)? I have only ever had problems with JW malt in VERY high graivty brews, ie. 1.090 range.

I didn't test the pH of either mash but I did adjust the mash water of the altbier with gypsum, chalk, epsom salts, etc. I used Palmer's spreadsheet for this. My only other thought is that I got some channelling in my sparge. Apart from that, the two brews were pretty much identical in terms of the process.

Cheers

Neil

[drsmurto]

The last 2 batches i have had big changes in efficiency.

Only 2 i have ever adjustng the water profile!

AIPA that i added CaSO4.

Stout that i added CaCO3.

AIPA dropped to 60%, Stout about 65%.

Usually i am a reliable 70%.

Seems Adelaide tap water was doing good things for me and now i have messed with it, its all gone to shit.

[Kevnlis]

The last 2 batches i have had big changes in efficiency.

Only 2 i have ever adjustng the water profile!

AIPA that i added CaSO4.

Stout that i added CaCO3.

AIPA dropped to 60%, Stout about 65%.

Usually i am a reliable 70%.

Seems Adelaide tap water was doing good things for me and now i have messed with it, its all gone to shit.

Better send your water to the CSRIO for analysis...

Seriously though, pH can have a HUGE impact on your extract efficiency! As a chemist you know that at any given pH a protein is in a different form (especialy the larger enzymes important in the mash). The enzyme receptors are also slightly affected by the pH, meaning for every little bit you are out of range, you greatly increase the chances that the enzyme will not be able to "dock" with the "mother ship"

Always test the pH of your mash, at 0, 5 and 10 min minimum. If you need to make adjustments this is the time to do it.

[Neil]

The last 2 batches i have had big changes in efficiency.

Only 2 i have ever adjustng the water profile!

AIPA that i added CaSO4.

Stout that i added CaCO3.

AIPA dropped to 60%, Stout about 65%.

Usually i am a reliable 70%.

Seems Adelaide tap water was doing good things for me and now i have messed with it, its all gone to shit.

Better send your water to the CSRIO for analysis...

Seriously though, pH can have a HUGE impact on your extract efficiency! As a chemist you know that at any given pH a protein is in a different form (especialy the larger enzymes important in the mash). The enzyme receptors are also slightly affected by the pH, meaning for every little bit you are out of range, you greatly increase the chances that the enzyme will not be able to "dock" with the "mother ship"

Always test the pH of your mash, at 0, 5 and 10 min minimum. If you need to make adjustments this is the time to do it.

I have some of those little dipcards for testing poolwater pH. Are they good enough? I'm using rainwater, so am assuming that starts at c. 6.5 pH. I made a stout and TTL clone earlier and had adjusted my water with chalk, gypsum, salt additions and had got 80% efficiency, so I'm still a mite puzzled. But I'm game to keep trying

Neil

[Kevnlis]

I would invest in a digital pH meter. Dip cards are not really accurate enough. I will let the chemist explain about tank water and salt additions

[drsmurto]

The last 2 batches i have had big changes in efficiency.

Only 2 i have ever adjustng the water profile!

AIPA that i added CaSO4.

Stout that i added CaCO3.

AIPA dropped to 60%, Stout about 65%.

Usually i am a reliable 70%.

Seems Adelaide tap water was doing good things for me and now i have messed with it, its all gone to shit.

Better send your water to the CSRIO for analysis...

Seriously though, pH can have a HUGE impact on your extract efficiency! As a chemist you know that at any given pH a protein is in a different form (especialy the larger enzymes important in the mash). The enzyme receptors are also slightly affected by the pH, meaning for every little bit you are out of range, you greatly increase the chances that the enzyme will not be able to "dock" with the "mother ship"

Always test the pH of your mash, at 0, 5 and 10 min minimum. If you need to make adjustments this is the time to do it.

I did check pH using special pH paper a friendly bloke at CSIRO gave me. Not as good as a pH meter i admit.

Rainwater is a better place to start with additions as you effectively have a blank canvas. Beersmith helps you work out how much you need to achieve a certain 'profile' but its that simplistic approach that has backfired on me.

Water profiles are one thing, the actual resulting mash pH is the critical factor in enzyme activity. As Kev said, subtle shifts in pH favour 1 enzyme over another. Different enzymes have different roles in the breakdown of starches and complex sugars. As well as changing the shape and charge of the enzyme.

For the AIPA i upped the Ca(2+) to 150ppm and the SO4(2-) to 200. Because i was mashing an unknown quantity (home roasted malt) with a base malt i really didnt take into account the potential pH change the darker malt would have so i was a tad under where i needed to be. (~5) My thinking was that Adelaide has a Ca(2+) level of ~25 (from memory, it could be 50). An ideal Ca(2+) level is 50-150 so i wanted to get myself into that range but also up the SO4(2-) level to ~200 for a high IBU beer as Palmer states ' SO4 accentuates hop bitterness, making the bitterness seem drier, more crisp'.

For the stout i added CaCO3 to replicate Dublins Ca(2+) and CO3(2-) levels. With all the dark malt in addition to the Ca(2+) i would have seriously messed with the mash pH. I didnt take a reading. The extra CO3(2-) was there to balance the pH due the 10% of dark malts i added which would have lowered pH. In hindsight i would have been better of using NaHCO3 as the Ca(2+) also lowers pH!

So for me its back to the drawing board. With Adelaide tap water i am able to crank out most beer styles other than those bo pils which have basically pure water as their base, or burton ales which require water very high in minerals.

Its amusing really, Adelaide has the reputation of having possibly the worst tasting water in the country. In reality, apart from the high chlorine and chloramine levels (which can be easily dealt with), our water is extremely good for brewing a wide range of styles. You would have thought someone with a half decent knowledge of chemistry would pick up on that faster than i have......

Pity that nice bloke at CSIRO doesn't work there anymore, i could have convinced him to borrow a pH meter for me. I hear his sanity was at risk. Besides, he was sick of dealing with a bunch of overpaid consultants pretending to be scientists....

Cheers
DrSmurto

[Kevnlis]

... Pity that nice bloke at CSIRO doesn't work there anymore, i could have convinced him to borrow a pH meter for me. I hear his sanity was at risk. Besides, he was sick of dealing with a bunch of overpaid consultants pretending to be scientists....

Cheers
DrSmurto

LMAO! I will not comment on that one...