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When using US05 I'm finding that when making brews like Boonies LCPA that often the brew does not appear to ferment out fully after 2 or three weeks. My beers a often a darker sweeter version of what I've aimed for. I was at first putting the problem down to older cans of malt, but after switching to dry malt I'm still experiencing the same problem. I thought that I was letting the temperature get to low so I stopped putting ice around the fermenter which sits in a pale of water in my very warm QLD garage(the temp on the thermometer averaged around 20c) and this saw a slight improvement. I've never had this problem with regular Coopers kits but I did experience the problem with a Coopers traditional draft and Bitter, both turned out sweet and sickly(with cooper's kit yeast in this case). I'm pitching the 12g sachets straight onto the wort. Is this problem related to the higher OG witha kg of malt and do I need to use a starter??? I'm sure that these results are not the consequence of an infection?

When producing TL's SNPA partial recipe I've experience no such problem.

I'm would not be overly concerned if they were simply darker, but they appear to have simply not fermented out: Having said this all bottles have been nicely carbed and never had a bottle bomb.

Any ideas
Hirns

If you are using a kit can with a kilo of dry malt, and nothing else, then you will potentially end up with somewhat sweeter brews compard to normal.

The reason is that dry malt is not fully fermentable, unlike simple sugar or dextrose. The unfermented part of the malt is perceived as sweetness, although it also adds body and mouthfeel to your brews.

To counteract this, you need to add some bittering hops to balance your brews again, and you will likely find they are better. If you use a program such as BeerSmith, you can play around with your recipe until you get an IBU/SG bitterness ratio which suits you.
Alternatively, use say ½ kg of dry malt, and ½ kg of dextrose, and see how you go.

What you are experiencing is definitely not the result of an infection. Most bugs will ferment stuff which your brewing yeast won't. You will, in fact, end up with the opposite of your problem, i.e. no sweetness or body, and no taste, but with gushers or bombs.

Thanks for the quick reply Warra. I am using hops when adding the extra malt as for example with boonies LCPA recipe. The LCBA recipe below is one that I'm drinking now and experiencing the same problem.

3.00 kg. Coopers LME - Light Australia 1.038 7
0.30 kg. Corn Sugar Generic 1.046 0

12.00 g. B-Saaz Pellet 6.80 9.4 45 min.
12.00 g. Cascade Pellet 5.90 8.2 45 min.
10.00 g. B-Saaz Pellet 6.80 4.2 15 min.
10.00 g. Cascade Pellet 5.90 3.7 15 min.
18.00 g. B-Saaz Pellet 6.80 0.0 0 min.
18.00 g. Cascade Pellet 5.90 0.0 0 min.

Yeast US-05

They all have a a taste or aftertaste similar to a Newcastle Brown Ale and almost as dark at times. This one above again would be close but tastes too much like the unfermented wort.

Hirns.

I also find I get better attenuation with liquid yeast than dry ones so maybe a side by side comparison using wyeast 1056 might help also.

hirns wrote:Thanks for the quick reply Warra. I am using hops when adding the extra malt as for example with boonies LCPA recipe. The LCBA recipe below is one that I'm drinking now and experiencing the same problem.

3.00 kg. Coopers LME - Light Australia 1.038 7
0.30 kg. Corn Sugar Generic 1.046 0

12.00 g. B-Saaz Pellet 6.80 9.4 45 min.
12.00 g. Cascade Pellet 5.90 8.2 45 min.
10.00 g. B-Saaz Pellet 6.80 4.2 15 min.
10.00 g. Cascade Pellet 5.90 3.7 15 min.
18.00 g. B-Saaz Pellet 6.80 0.0 0 min.
18.00 g. Cascade Pellet 5.90 0.0 0 min.

Yeast US-05

They all have a a taste or aftertaste similar to a Newcastle Brown Ale and almost as dark at times. This one above again would be close but tastes too much like the unfermented wort.

Hirns.

I assume by corn sugar you actually mean maltodextrin which is not fermentable and used to add body to your beer.

This is the opposite of what you need as Warra pointed out.

Replace that with dextrose which is fully fermentable and will dry your beer out.

Out of interest, what FG are you getting?

2 weeks at 20C is more than enough for US05 which i use regularly without issues. No problems with attenuation either.

If it is maltodetrine I wonder if thats what your tasting. Apparently it can cause a soapy flavour when used in larger amounts. Along with the other flavours in your brew maybe it could be causing the effect you're describing. If I use maltodextrin I only use 100g but I prefer to steep some spec malts instead.

I think the problem is you are just not using enough hops for this style of brew.

I put your recipe into BeerSmith, and this is what it shows. Your IBU of around 21 is too low and you need to up this to at least 30 IBU to overcome your problem. The style guidelines nominate a range of 30 to 50 IBU. I regularly do my APAs to about 45 IBU, and I think they're balanced.

3000.00 gm Light Dry Extract (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract 90.91 %
12.00 gm Cascade [5.90 %] (45 min) Hops 7.3 IBU
12.00 gm B Saaz [6.80 %] (45 min) Hops 7.7 IBU
10.00 gm Cascade [5.90 %] (15 min) Hops 3.0 IBU
10.00 gm B Saaz [6.80 %] (15 min) Hops 3.5 IBU
18.00 gm Cascade [5.90 %] (0 min) Hops -
18.00 gm B Saaz [6.80 %] (0 min) Hops -
300.00 gm Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 EBC) Sugar 9.09 %

Beer Profile Estimated Original Gravity: 1.053 SG (1.045-1.060 SG)
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.014 SG (1.010-1.015 SG)
Bitterness: 20.9 IBU (30.0-50.0 IBU)

This is what I suggest:
1. Increase the 45 minute boil to 60 minutes.
2. Increase the 12 grams each to 20 grams each for your 60 minute boil.

You should end up with an IBU of around 32 or 33, which will balance your beer much better.

This looks like the extract version of Tony's LCBA clone.

He lists it as 25 IBU so not all that far away.

Up the bitterness as Warra suggest but also add some dex to dry it out. Tony reports his AG version finishes at 1.008

Thanks for the input guys. It is Tony's recipe and I concede that the hops arn't high enough as I sit here doing a side by side test. However, does this account for the darker colour??? What about the Coopers masters kits followed as per can instructions(albeit the cans were a bit old)? Anyways thanks as I was thinking I had one problem where as know I'm beginning to thing that it may be the combination of several smaller problems.

PS How good is LCBA!!!

Hirns.

With additional thought it still does not quite answer the same problem I'm having when I do Boonies LCPA recipe???

Hirns

Apparently liquid malt can get darker with age - something to do with the Mallard reaction if I'm recalling correctly so if your tins were a bit old this may explain why your brews are darker than you would expect

warra48 wrote:I think the problem is you are just not using enough hops for this style of brew.

I put your recipe into BeerSmith, and this is what it shows. Your IBU of around 21 is too low and you need to up this to at least 30 IBU to overcome your problem. The style guidelines nominate a range of 30 to 50 IBU. I regularly do my APAs to about 45 IBU, and I think they're balanced.

3000.00 gm Light Dry Extract (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract 90.91 %
12.00 gm Cascade [5.90 %] (45 min) Hops 7.3 IBU
12.00 gm B Saaz [6.80 %] (45 min) Hops 7.7 IBU
10.00 gm Cascade [5.90 %] (15 min) Hops 3.0 IBU
10.00 gm B Saaz [6.80 %] (15 min) Hops 3.5 IBU
18.00 gm Cascade [5.90 %] (0 min) Hops -
18.00 gm B Saaz [6.80 %] (0 min) Hops -
300.00 gm Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 EBC) Sugar 9.09 %

Beer Profile Estimated Original Gravity: 1.053 SG (1.045-1.060 SG)
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.014 SG (1.010-1.015 SG)
Bitterness: 20.9 IBU (30.0-50.0 IBU)

This is what I suggest:
1. Increase the 45 minute boil to 60 minutes.
2. Increase the 12 grams each to 20 grams each for your 60 minute boil.

You should end up with an IBU of around 32 or 33, which will balance your beer much better.

Warra could you please recalculate that with 3kg of liquid malt (need to purchase beersmith). I did use corn suger as per Tony's recipe and have noted later in the recipe that the corn suger is referred to as dextrose(which is wheat suger isnt it?), so this woould have added to the non fermentables as the Dr suggested.

Thanks Hirns

Liquid extract will give approximately 20% less gravity points than dry extract.
Unfortunately, BeerSmith only works in weight, rather than volume, so I've guestimated the weight of 3 litres as about 3.3 kg of liquid extract.
Anyway, it will drop your predicted OG down to about 1.048. Your IBU/SG ratio will increase from .620 to .705, giving you a more bitter beer, with less malty sweetness.

Dextrose is in fact Corn Sugar, obviously derived from corn or maize, not wheat. It is fully fermentable. Perhaps you are thinking of maltodextrin, which contains a proportion of unfermentables?

earle wrote:Apparently liquid malt can get darker with age - something to do with the Mallard reaction if I'm recalling correctly so if your tins were a bit old this may explain why your brews are darker than you would expect

Yup, but Mallard is a "DUCK a la DONALD". You are thinking of Maillard reaction?
Maillard Reaction is a browning reaction caused by external heat wherein sugar (glucose) and an amino acid form a complex, and this product has a role in various subsequent reactions that yield pigments and melanoidins.

ALso, liquid malt extracts have a shelf life of about two years, depending on storage conditions, during which time its colour will approximately double.

With acknowledgement to John J. Palmer's "How to Brew" 3rd Edition.

Yep, I was thinking ducks when I wrote that but didn't have a reference handy. I also think ducks would darken your malt extract.

earle wrote:Yep, I was thinking ducks when I wrote that but didn't have a reference handy. I also think ducks would darken your malt extract.

Duck shite will do that to your beer ! LOL