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Looking for some advice

I recently did 2 brews side by side with the only variable being a reduction in LDME in one to create a mid-strength beer. Both used the same tin as a base, Coopers Real Ale. Both used a similar hopping schedule,

Full-strength
20g cascade 15min
20g cascade 5min
20g cascade dry (about 4 days)

Mid-strength
15g cascade 15min
15g cascade 5min
15g cascade dry (about 4 days)

Brew 1 used 1kg LDME while brew 2 used only 500g LDME. I used the same boil volume and density for both brews, so in theory hop utilisation and therefore resultant IBU’s should have produced a more bitter beer for brew 1 (at least on paper or in brewing software). What I have found is the mid-strength brew "tastes" considerably more bitter than the full-strength version, not too bitter, just different. Is this because the full-strength version is being sweetened by the additional malt extract?
Is there a way of calculating or best guessing the reduction in perceived bitterness when using LDME?


Planner

To compare 2 beers you really need to use the BU:GU ratio.

That is, the IBU divided by the OG.

An example is my golden ale recipe which has an OG of 1.047 and an IBU of 31

That gives a BU:GU ratio of 31/47 = 0.66

Since you are using a tin of hopped extract the largest contribution to the total IBU is the tin itself.

My info tells me the coopers real ale tin has an IBU of 30 in 23L.

Assuming you did a 23L batch you are already above the IBU i would use in anything with an OG of less than 1.040. There simply isn't enough malt in a mid strength to balance that amount of IBU.

If you could let me know the OG (and FG) of both recipes and what you think the total IBU should be i can crunch the numbers.

Cheers
DrSmurto

drsmurto wrote:
If you could let me know the OG (and FG) of both recipes and what you think the total IBU should be i can crunch the numbers.

DrS

Thanks for the quick reply, do you leave HB&B on screen at all times.

Both batches were 23l, I don't have the OG and FG figures with me at work, but I will retrive them tonight.

drsmurto wrote:
An example is my golden ale recipe which has an OG of 1.047 and an IBU of 31

Brewed another batch of your K&B version of this on the weekend. I think someone must be breaking into my shed and stealing it, every time I reach for another bottle there are none to be found. A cracker of a recipe, and soon to be my first attempt at an extract brew.

Planner

Planner wrote:

drsmurto wrote:
If you could let me know the OG (and FG) of both recipes and what you think the total IBU should be i can crunch the numbers.

DrS

Thanks for the quick reply, do you leave HB&B on screen at all times.

Both batches were 23l, I don't have the OG and FG figures with me at work, but I will retrive them tonight.

drsmurto wrote:
An example is my golden ale recipe which has an OG of 1.047 and an IBU of 31

Brewed another batch of your K&B version of this on the weekend. I think someone must be breaking into my shed and stealing it, every time I reach for another bottle there are none to be found. A cracker of a recipe, and soon to be my first attempt at an extract brew.

Planner

At home today playing around with the new computer so have this open.

If you could also give me your boil volume and SG i can do some more number crunching.

At a guess though and without knowing the AA% rating of your cascade you are looking at in excess of 40 IBU which is way too much for a 'mid strength'. You either need to use a lower hopped kit or go full extract.

Doc

I have retrieved the info from home as requested.

Brew 1: full-strength
Coopers Real Ale
1000g LDME
250g crystal 60min
20g cascade 15min
20g cascade 5min
20g cascade 0min (forgot about this addition yesterday)
20g cascade dry - 4days
O.G: 1040
F.G: 1013
A.A: 5.8% (so I’am told by importer)
Boil volume: 4l (I know it’s probably too small, but it’s all my portable electric hotplate is capable of) with 300g LDME (found from a long lost thread on this site, maybe Warra’s suggestion).
IBU: 39 (from an excel spreadsheet found on AHB)

Brew 2: mid-strength
Coopers Real Ale
500g LDME
250g crystal 60min
15g cascade 15min
15g cascade 5min
15g cascade 0min (forgot about this addition yesterday)
15g cascade dry - 4days
O.G: 1030
F.G: 1009
A.A: 5.8% (so I’am told by importer)
Boil volume: 4l (I know it’s probably too small, but it’s all my portable electric hotplate is capable of) with 300g LDME (found from a long lost thread on this site, maybe Warra’s suggestion).
IBU: 37 (from an excel spreadsheet found on AHB)

As I stated earlier I am not too disappointed with either of these brews, just interested to find out why the level of bitterness was so different and the reverse to what I expected. I know it seems like a lot of hops, but was keen to experiment. My tastes have certainly changed since starting HBing.

Planner

Ok, so my lunch time number crunching using beersmith gives the following.

Brew # 1.
23L
OG 1.038
IBU 39
BU:GU 1.02

Brew #2
23L
OG 1.031
IBU 37
BU:GU 1.2

So what you have noticed is confirmed by the numbers as the BU:GU ratio for the 'mid-strength' is higher.

In reality, brew #1 is a mid strength and brew #2 is a light beer by australian beer standards but that's not all that relevant.

If you like the beers then that's fine.

My suggestion would be to forget about repeating repeating brew #2 and make a few changes to brew #1 to make it a more balanced mid-strength. I would remove the 15 min addition. This gives you an IBU of 32 with a BU:GU of 0.84 which whilst still high IMO is closer to a balanced beer.

The other alternative is to use a different kit with a lower IBU such as Coopers Lager. At 23 IBU it allows you to boil more hops without going over the top in total IBU.

To make a 'full strength' beer of ~4.5% abv, up the LDME to 1.5 kg keeping the boil volume etc the same. You can then increase the extra hops to 20g @ 15 mins and 20g @ 0 mins plus dry hopping if that's your thing. If you used Coopers Lager instead of the real ale tin you could add a lot more hops and turn it into a very hop flavoured beer and still keep the BU:GU ratio at a balanced level.

I would also suggest ditching the kit yeast in favour of US05 to allow the hops to shine.

Cheers
DrSmurto

drsmurto wrote:
The other alternative is to use a different kit with a lower IBU such as Coopers Lager. At 23 IBU it allows you to boil more hops without going over the top in total IBU.

Thanks Doc

I will give this one a go. Real Ale seems always to be on special in one of the supermarkets, so it tends to get used as a base quite a lot. At the moment it's cheaper than buying LDME or LLME so I haven't yet ventured into extract brews. I will persevere with brew 2 with some modifications, as I like the flavour and I like having a few stubbies of 3.0% - 3.5% in the fridge at all times.

drsmurto wrote:
I would also suggest ditching the kit yeast in favour of US05 to allow the hops to shine.

I use US05 almost exclusively now, especially since my nagging has paid off and LHBS now stocks it (even keeps it in the fridge, now to work on his hop storage).

Planner