When can I tell?

[Elbow]

Hi Guys,

I've brewed around five batches so far and have a quick question:

My first batch was brewed at the end of May for just under 3 weeks. It was a Brewcraft Munich Lager with a # 15 brew booster and a Saflager yeast. It's been bottled for over 8 weeks now. When can I tell if it's ok or not? I tasted a bottle a week ago and also one last night and it was pretty ordinary. The carbonation and colour are great, just tastes a bit weak.

If done correctly, would it be tasting semi palatable at 8 weeks?

Thanks in advance for any advice!

[gregb]

If it is tastes a bit weak / watery, but otherwise ok it may be a simple case that you've over diluted your wort.

What volume did you top up your fermenter to?
Original and final gravities?

Cheers,
Greg

[Elbow]

Hi Greg,

I made it to around just under 23 litres. I don't have the og's with me but from memory it was roughly 1046 at OG and 1012 at FG. Although I cleaned everything thoroughly, I might have not sterilised properly. The taste isn't actually sour, but it's not particularly good either.

I might take it back to my HBS and give them a taste. They claim they will give you a new batch if you stuff up your first attempt in any way!

[Chris]

It could just be the kit. Not all kits are created equal, and I've never thought much of Brewcraft.

[warra48]

I recall my first ever K & K brew was the same as yours. It did taste pretty ordinary.
It could also be due to too high pitching or fermentation temperatures. Do you know what they were?
If you wish to brew a really nice beer with a kit and some steeped grains etc, try Boonie's LCPA. You'll find it in the recipe threads.

[Elbow]

Yes, I've seen that LCPA recipe and I'll definitely give that a whirl.

It was pitched at 26 deg and brewed 15-18 degrees. As far as the quality of the BrewCraft Munich stuff, I was under the impression that it was made by Munton's anyway (sure I read it in Beer Magazine).

Regardless, It's all good fun and keeps me off the streets so i'll plough on!

For future reference, how long in the bottle would a similiar lager or pale ale take before it tastes like it's "on the way"?

[warra48]

I agree the Brewcraft kits are mostly made by Muntons.
I think the problem is probably the pitching temperature of 26ºC. By the time the fermenter was down to 15 to 18ºC, the less than tasty hot fermentation by-products (eg fusel alcohol) would have been produced.
Did you use the kit yeast? I doubt it was a true lager yeast.
If you use a true lager yeast, eg Saflager S23 and others, try to pitch and ferment it no higher than about 10 to 12ºC. It will take 2 or 3 weeks to ferment at that temperature. You should then probably rack it, and lager it for at least 4 weeks at down to as low as 0 or 1ºC, before you bottle it.
Althougn I now brew AG, I don't bother brewing lagers. If I want a nice refreshing light beer, I brew an AG hefeweizen. Much easier and quicker.
I think a lot of brewers beleive the only way to brew a good clean lager is to go AG. However, don't let me put you off, if that is the style of beer you want.

[drtom]

This is a question I'm looking forward to other people's replies. I've never thought much of any of my ~30 brews until they were at least 3 months or more in the bottle. In fact, most of what I'm drinking now is 9-12 months in the bottle, some closer to 18 months. I find they develop a mellowness that I like that which they don't have when they're new.

dT.

[homebrewer79]

If you use a true lager yeast, eg Saflager S04

Don't you mean S-23 or W-34/70

[Elbow]

I actually used a Saf 23. It's mind boggling the amount of conflicting information you can get as a new brewer. From the Coopers video "whack it all in, add water and enjoy 1 week later" to the more involved practices (racking, etc).
I was under the impression that if you pitched the yeast at between 20-28 you would be ok?

[homebrewer79]

I actually used a Saf 23

When using lager yeast the brew should really be kept at 10-12 deg, anything much more than this will give you pretty ordinary results. I don't brew lagers so i'm sure those who do will have a wealth of info for you

[warra48]

If you use a true lager yeast, eg Saflager S04

Don't you mean S-23 or W-34/70

Yeah, original post edited to correct it. Thanks!

[Elbow]

I actually used a Saf 23

When using lager yeast the brew should really be kept at 10-12 deg, anything much more than this will give you pretty ordinary results. I don't brew lagers so i'm sure those who do will have a wealth of info for you

So, as a general rule of thumb, is it best not to brew lagers unless you can accurately maintain those lower temps?

Loads of questions I know! Thanks for everyone's replies thus far.

[warra48]

I actually used a Saf 23. It's mind boggling the amount of conflicting information you can get as a new brewer. From the Coopers video "whack it all in, add water and enjoy 1 week later" to the more involved practices (racking, etc).
I was under the impression that if you pitched the yeast at between 20-28 you would be ok?

For lagers, you will definitely get a much better result if you pitch at fermentation temperature of 10 to 12ºC.
For ales, I like to ferment at 18ºC, but I'm happy to pitch it at up to 20ºC.
Wheats I'm happy to pitch at up to 22ºC.
Pitching at too high a temperature is all well and good, because you give the yeast nice warm and fuzzies, and they get off to quick multiplication and fermentation. That's the reason a lot of the kit supplied brewing instructions tell you to pitch at up to 28ºC, as it almost guarantees the fermentation will kick off in double quick time, and a first time brewer won't have a failure. However, doing that produces sh*te for beer. And I have no doubt a lot of new brewers will be discouraged by that. What I don't understand is why the kit makers want to prejudice further sales of their products. Why would anyone go back for further attempts at producing something they don't enjoy drinking?
I'm a firm believer in pitching at your intended fermentation temperature.

[warra48]

So, as a general rule of thumb, is it best not to brew lagers unless you can accurately maintain those lower temp

Loads of questions I know! Thanks for everyone's replies thus far.

For me personally, I agree with you. I consider myself an ale brewer, anyway, as I limit myself to 1 lager brew a year. However, I have a brew fridge where I can control my temperatures. Temperature control is definitely a key to producing palatable beers.

[homebrewer79]

So, as a general rule of thumb, is it best not to brew lagers unless you can accurately maintain those lower temps?

Yep, and thats half the reason why I don't brew them, I don't have the temp controll for it. They are better of brewed at those temps for say 2-3 weeks, then racked into secondary and lagered for more than a month

[Elbow]

Well I've got a can of Thomas Cooper heritage lager which I was going to mix tonight. I'll try pitching the yeast at a lower temperature and maybe fermenting in the garage outside rather than the relatively warm spot indoors I use at the moment.

Thanks once again for all the advice.

[Tipsy]

Well I've got a can of Thomas Cooper heritage lager which I was going to mix tonight. I'll try pitching the yeast at a lower temperature and maybe fermenting in the garage outside rather than the relatively warm spot indoors I use at the moment.

Thanks once again for all the advice.

Sorry for conflicting advice but I wouldn't pitch that yeast too cool as they only give you a pissy little packet of yeast.

I cold pitch as well but I use 2 12g packets

[Elbow]

Ah, now I am confused!

I was under the impression the Heritage Lager came with a yeast that was a combination of Coopers Ale Yeast and S189.

[Chris]

When you brew a lager, you generally are looking for lager characteristics- hence, you'd rather the lager part of the blend to dominate in the wort. Hence, you want to ferment the lager colder to get the saf going. You can ferment it a bit warmer and let the Coopers yeast dominate, but why would you want to? This is a lager, not an ale after all.

I'd still pitch it warmish as Tipsy said, as you want the teast to get going- the small amount of yeast per packet tends to increase lag, which the warmer wort reduces to a degree. Then ferment out cooler to get the lager characteristics. Just because you can ferment out warmer, doesn't mean you want to.