Do I Hijack a Cerveza or a Lager Kit?

[Bizier]

Hi,

I am trying to come up with easy and repeatable solutions to my brewing. I am carless in inner-sydney which makes most HB stores a bit of a hike on PT. So I am basically after the palest, blandest kit possible to hijack with other ingredients, that is available while I get groceries.

I have been using the Coopers Lager kit a fair bit, with good results, but I saw that the Cerveza Kit has both less IBUs and EBC.
It is probably my absolute least favorite style of beer, but should be very easily hijacked with grain, hops and yeast, especially as I remember the Lager kit uses POR (they may well both) which is not always desirable.

Has anyone done this with success?
Are there any foreseeable issues with the Cerveza Kit - part of me expects the malt to be watery or half dex or something?

[homebrewer79]

The Coopers Real Ale kit is a good one for mucking around with, have a look at this thread http://homebrewandbeer.com/forum/viewto ... ale#p85160 , I realise I'm not really answering your question but I thought It might be something to think about

[Lachy]

Yeah, the Real Ale is a great base for messing around with ale recipes - although I wouldn't exactly describe it as bland. However, it is an awesome kit that you can often get for less than ten bucks. If you're brewing on a tight budget, I'd say go for this kit.

Again, for a light coloured lager that seems to give decent results, I'd suggest the Coopers European Lager (it's also got its own thread somewhere around here). I think you can get it from Coles for $12-13, and unlike some kit lagers I've done it actually seems to taste fairly decent. It's got a light colour and a crisp flavour, without humungous bitterness, so you could conceivably use it as a base for lagers, Pilseners, Bocks, etc - just add malts, grains and hops to taste. Also, it actually comes with a useful lager yeast (S-189), so there's no particular need to grab a new yeast if you want to keep it simple.

I personally dislike the cervesa style, and if you want to make decent lagers then I'd advise you stay away from cervesa kits. Use a good lager kit as a starting point, and you should get a good result with minimal effort. Use a crap kit, and you'll have to go to much more effort to camouflage the taste.

[Bizier]

Thanks guys,

I have used the Real Ale kit a little, and I am happy with it as it turns out a nice ale, but it is too bitter and particular for many uses. My very first beer used real ale, dex, then some goldings boiled and chucked in, then some cascade later in dry hop. It was all added as I acquired various ingredients, but man - what a freakin' confused mutant of a beer. I made myself drink it as punishment for making it. I believe that the moral was not to mix the Real ale with American hops. It was also my first and last use of dex in significant quantity.

Use a crap kit, and you'll have to go to much more effort to camouflage the taste

I want a can from the supermarket with the minimal identifiable hops and the lightest malt, so basically a blank slate if I wish to use it for a light APA or lager, or even add wheat etc. I fully intend to do at least a 45-30 min boil with malt and hops. I think it is a crap style because it is bland, but that should be exactly why it looks useful.

I am thinking of throwing one down with a bunch of galaxy to see where that goes, kind of in the knappstein zone. For this I am not too keen on having too much saaz or whatever is in the european kit. I purchased a can of Euro Lager yesterday to throw down with some noble hops, and I look forward to it based on that thread. I just don't think it is what I am after as a general starting point.

[DJ]

Thanks guys,

I have used the Real Ale kit a little, and I am happy with it as it turns out a nice ale, but it is too bitter and particular for many uses. My very first beer used real ale, dex, then some goldings boiled and chucked in, then some cascade later in dry hop. It was all added as I acquired various ingredients, but man - what a freakin' confused mutant of a beer. I made myself drink it as punishment for making it. I believe that the moral was not to mix the Real ale with American hops.

you can mix the Real Ale can with cascade, amarillo etc (APA style hops)....

but using goldings and then cascade would be your issue.. would have done better dry hopping with fuggles....

[Lachy]

I have used the Real Ale kit a little, and I am happy with it as it turns out a nice ale, but it is too bitter and particular for many uses. My very first beer used real ale, dex, then some goldings boiled and chucked in, then some cascade later in dry hop. It was all added as I acquired various ingredients, but man - what a freakin' confused mutant of a beer. I made myself drink it as punishment for making it. I believe that the moral was not to mix the Real ale with American hops. It was also my first and last use of dex in significant quantity.

Well, as DJ said, the mix of hops would be an issue. However, I'd also suggest that you may have over-hopped it, given that you didn't add any malt to balance your hop additions. When I make the Real Ale, I add a kilo of LDME as a minimum. Malt will give you more body and cut the perceived bitterness of extra hops, whereas a kilo of dextrose really won't do you any favours under the circumstances. Next time, try adding one or a mix of Amarillo, Cascade or Simcoe to the Real Ale plus one kilo of LDME and you should have a nice little APA. The Real Ale plus a kilo of liquid amber malt extract and 30g of Goldings in a five minute boil will give a nice amber ale. It's all about finding what mixes well.

I want a can from the supermarket with the minimal identifiable hops and the lightest malt, so basically a blank slate if I wish to use it for a light APA or lager, or even add wheat etc. I fully intend to do at least a 45-30 min boil with malt and hops. I think it is a crap style because it is bland, but that should be exactly why it looks useful.

I wouldn't use a lager can for an ale, nor vice versa. I'm sure it probably can be done, but I reckon you're better using a can that is at least vaguely in keeping with the style that you're trying to achieve. I wouldn't bother using a Coopers Mexican to do an Amber Ale or a Pilsener, particularly when better cans are just as readily available at the same price from the supermarket. If you want a basic cheapie can to do lager styles, try the Coopers Lager or the European Lager. Both are light in flavour and colour, and should be easy to play around with without getting weirdness from residual hops from the kits. It's for this reason that I particularly lean towards the European, as it doesn't seem to have the distinctive PoR flavour that some of the other Coopers kits tend to have.

I am thinking of throwing one down with a bunch of galaxy to see where that goes, kind of in the knappstein zone. For this I am not too keen on having too much saaz or whatever is in the european kit. I purchased a can of Euro Lager yesterday to throw down with some noble hops, and I look forward to it based on that thread. I just don't think it is what I am after as a general starting point.

If you like Knappstein (good choice, mate!) I think you'll need to grab some Nelson Sauvin. I tried a Brewcraft Munich Lager, with a kilo of LDME, 25g of Nelson Sauvin @ 10 min and fermented cool with S-23. The colour was identical, however the NS was more restrained in my version. Seriously, I reckon you could sub in the European without any problems with the existing hops becoming too apparent in the finished brew.

[Bizier]

Cheers guys,

The real ale I spoke of was my first brew, and I definitely have had a few ideas of my own since then, though I am still only a few months into a burgeoning obsession. I unfortunately tried to turn that beer around mid swing using limited ingredients and knowledge... WRONG! I just looked at my brew logs, and I have a real ale kit APA, should be ready around this weekend, just chucked a couple in the fridge in prep.

As for the knapstein, I don't have any NS, but I may grab some in the future.. have enough hops for now, just got 500g cascade and NB, plus plenty more in freeze. I was just thinking of trying a galaxy lager because of the passionfruit notes. I did some APAs and they tasted fantastic at the fermenter.

Re: Cerveza, looks like trials are in order.

[nath76]

From my limited experience I beleive that supa alpha is a hop that is put with a mex cerverva. Also Canadian light kit with supa alpha to mimik corona....but I could be wrong

[earle]

I wouldn't use a lager can for an ale, nor vice versa.

When it comes to the coopers supermarket kits I strongly suspect that it the same malt is probably used in all of them anyway, the difference coming from the hops (isohops?). Its the yeast that really makes it a lager or an ale. If you're going to hijack it with spec malts and hops, I agree that one way to go is with the blandest kit that you can get (closest to unhopped malt extract). Either coopers cerveza or lager would be fine,the euro lager is supposed to have more hop aroma (?) which may not suit the style you want to make. This way you get a lot more control over you finished product.

Of course you can also use a kit closer to the style. A while ago a lot of people on this forum were doing porters using the Cascade porter kit as the base, while Doc Smurto was having porter success with a coopers lager kit - at least he knew what dark malts were in it.

[Bizier]

When it comes to the coopers supermarket kits I strongly suspect that it the same malt is probably used in all of them

Specs from Coopers site:

Lager
Colour - 90EBC
Bitterness - 390IBU

Cerveza
Colour - 53EBC
Bitterness - 270IBU

The malt seems a fair bit paler, though I am unsure how they achieve colour in their manufacturing process.
My main concern is that the Cerveza was going to have some particular taste to it, or that it is simply inferior for some reason. If they use super alpha, then that should be easy to hijack to another style, I read that it is quite clean.

Doc Smurto was having porter success with a coopers lager kit - at least he knew what dark malts were in it.

That is my exact reason, I just want something I can stock up on easily and have a known, reliable base to start from for near any style, essentially light malt with a helping hand on the bittering.

Thanks guys

[earle]

When it comes to the coopers supermarket kits I strongly suspect that it the same malt is probably used in all of them anyway

I may be wrong here, but what I meant is that the base malt is probably the same. Commercial brewers and all grain homebrewers use a base malt specific to the type of beer they're brewing, pilsner malt for pilsners and lagers, different base malts for ales. I suspect that the base malt for the supermarket coopers kits (at least) is the same in all of them, they then use different kettling times and maybe some spec malt additions to make the different styles.

I have also heard that coopers uses a squirt of isohops for bittering rather than hops themselves so this should be fairly low in flavour aroma as well.

I think most people are of the opinion that the Coopers Cerveza is pretty low on flavour/aroma so you should be safe to go with it. Having said that the colour of the kits in 23L is pretty close anyway Lager 5EBC Cerveza 2.9 EBC both quite light. Personally if given a choice between the two I would probably choose the cheapest of the two unless I was trying to make a nice pale pilsener in which case I would probably use neither, I would go for something which I knew was made with pilsner malt.

[Tipsy]

I'd suggest the Coopers European Lager
Also, it actually comes with a useful lager yeast (S-189)

A bit OT but I just bought one of these cans and was dissapointed that the lager yeast was only 7g.
I think you can get away with 7g of their regular ale yeast but for a lager it seems to be underpitching.

[Bizier]

dissapointed that the lager yeast was only 7g.

I have full intentions to change the yeast entirely to suit the end product, and I made a pact with myself not to use the coopers yeasts unless it is absolutely last resort (maybe the euro lager kit yeast using a starter).

that the base malt is probably the same

I agree, and I think that it would make good commercial sense to do it in that manner. I imagine that they must produce a fair whack of these kits per year. I like the prospect of a lighter kit malt, as they are all turn out generally quite dark. But I don't care that much, I'll just dim the lights for now and think about the taste .

[Lachy]

A bit OT but I just bought one of these cans and was dissapointed that the lager yeast was only 7g.
I think you can get away with 7g of their regular ale yeast but for a lager it seems to be underpitching.

Not really that OT at all...

I pitched the sachet of yeast at about 22 degrees and had no problems whatsoever. I'm also used to using the bigger Saflager sachets, but honestly this stuff seemed to take off just as fast, if not faster than the Saflager.