homebrewandbeer.com

I stumbled upon the forum just now, about 3 days after I started my Black Rock Cider. Seems to be some great advice in the forum regarding cider, in particular the advice to add lactose to the mix in order to avoid ending up with a very, very dry cider.

So typical bull at a gate stuff, I mixed up some lactose in boiling water, let it cool, then cracked open the fermenter and mixed it into the three-day old mix. Then out of nowhere an almighty head started reaching for the top of fermenter. The lid is back on now, but I am wondering whether it is okay for me to have made this addition to the mix during the fermentation period.

I'm interested in the answer because logically it would seem like a good way to boost the alcohol content by every now and again adding some more yeast and glucose.

Any comments appreciated.

Ciderman,

Lactose + heat = fermentable sugars.

The trick is not to break it down.

Dogger

crikey, so effectively I've just added another 200g of glucose which won't add sweetness. Oh well, more alcohol I guess.

Anyway, great tip Digger & good to know. Thx

Actually, lactose doesn't split into glucose and galactose when you heat it. It will in the presence of an enzyme, but this shouldnt be present in your water. I'm doing my PhD on lactose crystallization and routinely heat solutions near 100C to dissolve the lactose as per literature procedures and only see lactose crystals in the end product, never glucose crystals. It will undergo a process called mutarotation that gets faster at higher temperatures, but both the alpha and beta forms are present at any temperature, just in different amounts, and neither should be fermentable by yeast, otherwise all of the lactose would eventually get eaten up.

I would guess the head formation is just due to the lactose crystals providing additional surface area (nucleation sites) for the CO2 to escape from solution. ANd if you stirred that would cause some CO2 to be released too.

You can feed more sugar during fermentation, up until the yeast's alcohol tolerance. Then the poor guys die and cant convert the sugar. This is how Sam Adams and Dogfish Head make those 18%+ beers. a regular yeast should be able to handle 9-10% before croaking.

Much appreciated feedback, thanks Doc (soon-to-be). I'm learning more here than I would in 10 trial and error brews.

I'm not sure what yeast is included with the Black Rock Cider, but I happen to know that some champagne yeast can be used as a substitute for brewing Cider. And these types of yeast handle alcohol contents up to 17%. The major challenge now will be to capture a nice flavour despite the rigours of all that multiple fermentation.

I gather that if I want to achieve a sweet flavour and really, really full body (like a thick stout) then at the time of bottling I still need to have a relatively high finishing gravity, meaning that a lot of sugar is still left unfermented. By implication then I need to start off with a hell of a lot glucoses and malts. But I vaguely remember reading somewhere that if the sugar content is too high to begin with then the yeast is overwhelmed and never gets going. Is this true, and what concentration of sugar can yeasts usually handle?

Ciderman,

You don't want too much glucose, as it's mostly fermentable and thus will add alcohol but not much body. To boost the body, add more malt, which doesn't ferment out as fully as glucose and therefore adds more body. You could also add corn syrup, but I don't go for this personally.

Bear in mind that you'll probably need to add extra hops to balance the extra sweetness of the extra residual sugars from the malt.

I don't think you really need to worry about adding more malt than the yeast can handle. I don't think you could add this much malt and still end up with anything vaguely drinkable. From experience I'd say the alcohol level killing the yeast would be more of a problem than the high sugar content preventing fermentation.

Sorry if this was a bit longwinded

Oliver

Aces,

I will stand corrected, I really thought you could crack those sugars apart

Dogger

Dogger,

you are more or less correct in the case of other disaccharides. The splitting of sucrose is how they make invert sugar, could have been what you were thinking about.

thehipone,

re invert sugar, what's your thoughts on this thread:

http://www.grumpys.com.au/read.php3?id=13305

is it possible to make invert sugar at home by boiling sucrose? & is citric acid required?

cheers
db

db,

Have a look at this for info on invert sugar:

http://www.homebrewandbeer.com/forum/vi ... .php?t=190

Cheers,

Oliver

Hipone,

Thanks for the out, I will take it, I am sure that was what I was thinking

Dogger

cheers oliver.. i have read that thread.. but i'm confused. from the link i posted:

"Invert sugars have a couple of endearing features; they taste very sweet due to the split into fructose and glucose and they NEVER crystallise. Trimoline looks like an unclarified honey with an opalescent colour and always remains a very thick liquid. Actually honey is also invert sugar, but once again the level of inversion varies as witnessed by the odd jar that will partially crystallise on extended storage. Invert sugars are used extensively in the confectionary trade as an "interfering agent" to stop crystallisation occurring in things like soft toffee and icing for cakes. As a brewing adjunct they are ideal as they ferment very cleanly without having to rely on the enzyme invertase in the yeast to do the "inversion" which once again is sometimes not always complete. There is a school of thought that this is one of the factors that leads to "citrusy flavours" in high sugar adjunct brewing.

Steve Jones makes reference to a method of making your own candi sugar using the Graham Sanders method of boiling the sugar with some citric acid. We have an oxymoron here - candi sugar is crystalline sugar, invert sugar is exactly the opposite as outlined above. What Graham has outlined is fine - just skip the citric acid and you will certainly be able to produce a more interesting sucrose solution. I think this procedure is on the Aussie Craft Brewers site as well but cant remember what level of citric acid he recommended there.

Candi sugar as used in the European brewing industry is commercially produced in a crystalline form as "rocks" or ground to a fine powder. Mostly now sourced out of Spain, it is made from the roots of the Sugar Beet and Chicory plants. It is a "pure" sucrose product but for what ever reason, does not seem to throw the same flavours as cane sugar derived sucrose. Certainly the caramalised versions of candi sugar do offer an interesting flavour profile."

the method that graham describes creates a sugar (of somesorts) that crystallizes.. but apparently invert sugar does not..

& now i am confused

cheers
db

It would be my opinion that candi sugar is actually just sucrose crystals. As far as the flavor effects, it could be due to the different amount of impurities in the crystals. Recrystallizing a material is a good way to purify it.

As far as I know you do need some sort of acid to invert the sucrose, I dont think enzymes will be available to the homebrewer to do it. Admittedly, I'm more of a pharmaceutical guy than a food guy, so I don't know that much about other sugars. (Those expensive pills that you buy often contain large fractions of lactose)

so it seems that there is a difference between candi sugar & invert sugar.. i was keen to experiment with some invert sugar... but it seems easier to just stick with 100% malt

db

I took Oliver's comments above into consideration, and I just completed putting down my latest brew. It's basically a cider, but it's going to be a close relative of a Stout. My ingredients:

Black Rock Cider mix (x 2 cans)
1 kg Golden Syrup
4 litres of natural apple juice
1.25 kg of Dark Malt
1 kg of Glucose
250 g of Lactose
250 g dried Corn syrup
27 litres of water

I have added the yeast provided with the Black Rock Cider mix, but I expect that to die when the alcohol content reaches about 8%, then I'm going to add some champagne yeast to boost alcohol into the 12-14% range. It tastes great straight out of the barrel now, awfully sweet of course, but I would say there is more than a fair bet it'll just taste plain awful at the end.

Whoah, that's going to be quite a beer/cider (cibeer?).

Let us know how it goes. Should be quite sweet. And alcoholic!

Cheers,

Oliver

Apparently there is no massive difference between candi sugar (or is that Kandi sugar) that you can buy (I haven't found it in a store) and invert sugar. Supposedly candi sugar is boiled sugar beet sucrose that is coaxed into crystallising into small candi pieces (like toffee). I'm not sure whether or not a food acid (eg citric acid) is added to this.

The colour of candi sugar is dependant on the boiling time where a longer boil produces darker reddish colours and less boiling time creates lighter golden colours. Maybe this produces the different flavours etc.

Jay.

jay,

you can buy candi sugar here: http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/ingredients%20_info.htm

but at $10 a pound i'd prefer to make it if possible..

& i always thought candi & invert sugar were the same thing too. but reading that thread & others on aussiehomebrewer.com now i'm not sure..

db

db,

Suppose yah just have to try a recipe with invert sugar first and then the same recipe with candi sugar. If there's no difference stick with the invert sugar.

Yeah, I think $10 for a pound of sugar is a bit steep, especially when you only pay around $10-15 for a kit beer can.

I made this up once...

1 can Coopers Pale Ale
500g Dried light Malt
500g Dextrose
500g Invert Sugar (boiled till golden)
200g Crystal Malt
SG 1.044 FG 1.010

This made a fine fruity brew, however It wasn't massively creamy (as I've heard candi sugar can give beers a creaminess?). Will add hops next time.

Jay.

thats my point.. i don't think that the method of boiling sucrose does infact produce an invert sugar.. as the product crystallizes, & invert sugar is a liquid that does not crystallize.. & i'm not sure exactly what 'candi' sugar is..

db