Stepping up and pitching yeast starters

[squirt in the turns]

I’m currently having my first try at re-culturing yeast from a bottle. In fact it’s the first time I’ve used anything other than dried yeast. I’ve pitched the dregs of 2 tallies of Coopers Pale Ale into 500ml of 1.036 wort made with LDME only. This is to be pitched into a CSA clone I’ve got waiting in a no-chill cube. Made the starter on Sat arvo while mashing the CSA, have been shaking it every few hours since. This morning after 8 hours without agitation, a 1.5cm layer of what I hope is yeast had settled under the liquid (which is still cloudy). This is in a 2L flask.

Need to know, if you folks could be so kind:
1. After each stage has fermented out, is this the correct time to step up?
2. If I miss the actual activity, would there still be signs of fermentation like dried krausen? I’m trying to work out if the 500ml starter has already been fermented. Is it this likely after 43 hours? I’ve read that re-cultured Coopers yeast is notoriously laggy at first.
3. When stepping up, should I chill and pour off the liquid from previous stages? Would repeated temperature changes stress the yeast too much?
4. How much yeast do I need to pitch into a 22L batch? How big a starter should I step up to? 2L?

Thanks in advance guys and girls.

[gregb]

See sticky

[Planner]

1. After each stage has fermented out, is this the correct time to step up?

I've usually waited until it has fermented out (mostly because I'm lazy)

2. If I miss the actual activity, would there still be signs of fermentation like dried krausen? I’m trying to work out if the 500ml starter has already been fermented. Is it this likely after 43 hours? I’ve read that re-cultured Coopers yeast is notoriously laggy at first.

A couple of mine have been very quiet during ferment, with no krausen, just the trub forming in the bottom. I've always left mine for 5-6 days anyway.

3. When stepping up, should I chill and pour off the liquid from previous stages? Would repeated temperature changes stress the yeast too much?

In the past I've chilled and poured off the "beer" only to minimise bottle size. Temp flucuations, not expert enough to comment.

4. How much yeast do I need to pitch into a 22L batch? How big a starter should I step up to? 2L?

Ive pitched 600ml once without stepping up (from instructions found on AHB), worked OK, but did take a long time to get started. All other times I have stepped up once to 1.5l and pitched at about 20deg, then cooled. These kick off within hours.

Hope this helps

Planner

[squirt in the turns]

See sticky

Thanks Greg. I'd already read the sticky and the links contained therein, but have not been able to find specific advice about when the various steps should be done, and how to judge the fermentation of a lazy starter. I guess if I was chilling and pouring off between steps, I could take an SG reading to be sure... but as my starter vessel is large enough, I don't need to pour off to make room, so I guess I'll just add more wort and avoid changing the temperature too much.

A couple of mine have been very quiet during ferment, with no krausen, just the trub forming in the bottom. I've always left mine for 5-6 days anyway.

Thanks for your advice, Planner. As it's now at about 2 days and I've definitely got a larger volume of sediment than came out of the 2 tallies, I'll step it up, maybe to 1L, then maybe to 2L. Based on the amount grown in 500ml, I should get a decent volume - hopefully enough to pitch and some to keep aside in a couple of stubbies covered with sterile water.

If I chill the final starter to settle the yeast and pour off the beer, is it best to pitch the yeast cold straight after pouring off, or allow it to come up to fermentation temperature first?

[warra48]

Squirt,
If you already have a ½ litre starter, I would build it up to a bigger starter for your next step, something like 1½ to 2 litres.
If you build the starter in too small increments, you encourage the existing yeast to just ferment your starter, without growing.
You need to give it a bit of a challenge, so it multiplies.

[squirt in the turns]

Squirt,
If you already have a ½ litre starter, I would build it up to a bigger starter for your next step, something like 1½ to 2 litres.
If you build the starter in too small increments, you encourage the existing yeast to just ferment your starter, without growing.
You need to give it a bit of a challenge, so it multiplies.

Cheers warra, straight to 2L it is!

[Planner]

If I chill the final starter to settle the yeast and pour off the beer, is it best to pitch the yeast cold straight after pouring off, or allow it to come up to fermentation temperature first?

SITT
I've always poured off the beer (or most of it) and allowed to warm to room temp before pitching. Leaving a couple of cm of beer, then swirling or shaking, makes it easier to get out of the bottle/flask.

[warra48]

If I chill the final starter to settle the yeast and pour off the beer, is it best to pitch the yeast cold straight after pouring off, or allow it to come up to fermentation temperature first?

SITT
I've always poured off the beer (or most of it) and allowed to warm to room temp before pitching. Leaving a couple of cm of beer, then swirling or shaking, makes it easier to get out of the bottle/flask.

Yeah, I totally agree with this. I do that as a matter of course, both when steppong up a starter, or pitching it into my brew. Have a taste as you pour it off, to make sure it tastes OK and is not infected etc.

I match the temperatures of my starters to the batch I'm pitching into. About 18ºC for ales, about 9 to 10ºC for lagers.

[squirt in the turns]

Yeah, I totally agree with this. I do that as a matter of course, both when steppong up a starter, or pitching it into my brew. Have a taste as you pour it off, to make sure it tastes OK and is not infected etc.

So, you're chilling each time you step up, warra?

[warra48]

Yeah, I totally agree with this. I do that as a matter of course, both when steppong up a starter, or pitching it into my brew. Have a taste as you pour it off, to make sure it tastes OK and is not infected etc.

So, you're chilling each time you step up, warra?

Yes, I do.
It's a slow process, but I begin my starter routine about a week before my planned brew day.
I'm retired, so I can brew whenever my starters are ready! I'm not tied to a weekend or a rostered day off etc.

[speedie]

When I cultured up that yeast from brutal IPA Rouges after I had drank the contents all but
I didn’t chill or decant off any beer during growth stage
I just kept adding wort to it too keep it in reproduction phase
It did however move it from a 500 ml container up to larger vessels eventually a 22 litre demijohn

This is only my thoughts on chilling your yeast that it is interrupted too many times with temperature change and that there is a chance of infection entering the vessel with the air when you cool it due to contraction

Also keep the culture has close to the ferment temperature that you plan to use
Other than that follow good hygiene practices and I am sure that you will satisfied with your results
Cheers speedie

[rotten]

Hey Speedie, your starter size is the the same as most of our brews!! So how could that ever be relevant.
aussiehomebrewer.com.au
Give it a go mate.
Cheers

showmanship comes by the bucket load over there

[speedie]

this is still just another typical comment that i recieve from my fellow astute brewers and at no stage was i showboating to anyone least of all you!
squit it is easy to culture up from bottle if you are prepared to give it a go
i will post on the current brew when it is finished

[rotten]

I'm not saying reculturing yeast from a bottle isn't possible. Brewers do it for CPA all the time and I'm sure many others. Your 22 ltr starter however is the same size if not larger than most of my brews, and screams ' mine is bigger than yours'.
observations is all
Cheers

[Bum]

Your 22 ltr starter however is the same size if not larger than most of my brews, and screams ' mine is bigger than yours'.

Well, the fact is that his is bigger than ours. But what you might need to have a little think about, rotten, is that (with the exception of some elements of how his fermentations behave) the only difference is a matter of scale so not everything he does is going to be irrelevant to us. His process will be more closely aligned with homebrewing than with commercial brewing (as I suspect you think? sorry if not).

Speedie, you do realise your claim that you weren't talking down to rotten was phrased in a very condescending manner, right?

[billybushcook]

Interesting timing on this thread & a good read, because Ivé finally got my stir bars, Flask & stir plate up & running this week.
A couple of questions as to the principles of Yeast cell multiplication:-

Y or N?
Yeast multiplies whilst in an oxygen rich wort until the oxygen is consumed & then turns to fermenting the sugars. (some one did post the names of these two phases, of which I can't remember)

If this is true:-

So why, when stepping up a starter/multiplying cells, would you let it ferment between steps?
wouldn't the chopping & changing of phases between steps, stress the yeast & give off some dead cells?
why not keep it on the stirr plate & gradually add more fresh wort to keep it multiplying?
Then let it begin fermentation prior to pitching!

Then when pitching.
If you have grown more than enough cells in a large starter & have it fermenting at high Krausen, ready to pitch.
Why pitch into an oxygenated wort & push it back into multiplication mode again when you actually want it to charge on with fermentation?

Cheers, Mick.

[warra48]

billy,

To my knowledge, what you propose is actually a good method, and it's the method used by the commercial yeast producers, as far as I am aware.

The reason most of us tend to let it ferment out is so that we can pour off the oxidised starter wort, and start with fresh wort onto the yeast cake of the starter. We don't necessarily have a large enough container to continuously keep feeding the starter before we run out of capacity.

[billybushcook]

Thx Warra.
But I was thinking more along the lines of giving it a few hrs on the stir plate & then chilling & pouring off before fermentation took hold, then add the fresh wort & go again & again until I had the required number of cells!
Logic tells me that only then, would I want to let the starter fire up ready for pitching.

Mick.

[squirt in the turns]

Mick, I +1 all of your original questions, and thank Warra for his response. I guess as home brewers it is extremely difficult for us to produce conditions in which yeast does nothing but reproduce or ferment sugars according to our preferences.

I would have thought that dormant yeast in a fermented-out starter going back into reproduction mode would do less damage than the repeated chilling and warming needed to keep pouring off wort before fermentation kicked in each time. Continuous drip feeding of fresh wort to the starter has been mentioned recently and likened to commercial methods (I thought it was on this forum but I can't find the thread now), which I suppose would remove the need to pour off the liquid.

I plan to wait for my starter to ferment out, chill it and pitch only the slurry. I know some will say that it should be pitched at high krausen, but what I can't understand about that is that all of the "beer" from the starter ends up in the brew too. I don't really feel like lovingly crafting 22 litres of wort (in this case, an AG CSA clone), only to top it up with 2+ litres of unhopped crap, which, as Warra points out, is oxidised anyway. With a 5 litre lager starter, this surely is even more of a problem? Are there any high-krausen pitchers here who can enlighten me?

[billybushcook]

I hear your pain on the volume of starter Squirt.
when realistically it is all about having ample numbers of cells & having them "in the mood" to attack the sugars.

So I'm still at a loss as to why one would pitch an already fermenting, ample sized starter into an earated wort?
I thought the whole reason for earating the wort was to multiply yeast cells?

If, instead, one was to pitch said starter into a wort, low or totally void of oxygen, should'nt it, in theory, happily get straight down to the buisness of fermenting the sugars?

Wishing I had done Microbiology instead of Mechanical Engineering, Mick.