Lagering Plans

[Heals]

Hey guys - just after some advice, I've gone through a fair few posts and have put together a procedure that I think I'll use for my first lager. I'm unsure exactly what kit I'll grab yeast, or even which yeast for that matter! As my local HB store doesn't sell liquid yeasts, I'm somewhat restricted to the dried SAFLager varieties.

Anywhoo, please let me know if anything in my to-do list sounds wrong!

1. Rehydrate TWO sachets of SAFLager yeast in luke warm water (around about 35c).

2. Mix wort and chill immediately to 10c (will just whack the fermenter in the laundry sink - iced water etc)

3. Pitch yeast at 10c.

4. Move primary fermenter into fridge set at 10c and leave for approx. 10 - 14 days

5. Rack quickly to secondary.

6. Place secondary into fridge and adjust it to 2c and leave for roughly 4 weeks.

7. Bottle and prime for 7 days.


Does that process sound okay?

Assuming that everything I'm doing there is correct, AFTER carbonation, should I keep the beers in the fridge to further their conditioning or will they continue to improve just as well at room temperature? Also, how much longer should I leave the beer to further condition in the bottle? I'd like to leave them out of the fridge at that stage if possible for storage reasons.

[Kevnlis]

Just a suggestion:

1. Rather than just rehydrate the yeast try to make a starter for it and let that go for a few days before pitching to the wort. I make my starters in a clean 2L bottle 3/4 full of boiled cooled water (10C same as the lager will ferment at 35C will reak havok on your yeast!) add 250g or so of malt extract and some yeast nutrient if you have it. Give it a good shake and cap loosly (so that air can get out but not back in) shake it occassionaly while it is working. I usually make mine 48 hours before I plan to make the wort.

7. It will take alot longer than 7 days to gas your brew. The yeast has been conditioned to live at 2C which makes it very slow! Give it a few weeks at least before you test one

You should keep the beers in the fridge at all times really. Lagers are best when slow fermented at a low temperature and then cold conditioned in the bottle/keg. If storage is a problem perhaps you could alternate making/storing a brew in your fridge space? Replacing the space used up by the fermentor with the newly bottled beer.

[Heals]

Thanks for the tips Kev.

I do have a question though about the starter. Because I'm adding 250g of malt to the starter, should I then subtract that same amount of fermentable material from the actual wort?

Overnight I tested the fridge to see what it's max temp would be and it looks like it's around 8.5c, is that too cold to ferment at? I was hoping I would be able to avoid getting a thermostat but it looks like I might have to!

[Pale_Ale]

Fermentation at 8C is ideal for lagers.

If you are only leaving it for 4 weeks I would lager at 4C.

Also, remember if you prime at the lagering temp, you will need less sugar as there is more residual co2 in the brew.

Once youve primed bring it back up to room temp (18C) to carbonate.

[Heals]

How much less sugar to prime?

At the moment I'm just using tallies with a standard measuring device (like the ones you get with most home brew kits). Use the half measure perhaps or slightly more than that...?

I'll revise my primary fermentation temp down to 8 degrees and lager for four weeks in the secondary at 4 degrees.

Pale_Ale, could you explain the reason for the lagering temp change?

After I prime and bottle my ales, I usually keep it around the 23 degree mark for a week or two - you've said 18 degrees, do lagers prime at a lower temp or am I buggering my ales as well!?

[Kevnlis]

How much less sugar to prime?

At the moment I'm just using tallies with a standard measuring device (like the ones you get with most home brew kits). Use the half measure perhaps or slightly more than that...?

I'll revise my primary fermentation temp down to 8 degrees and lager for four weeks in the secondary at 4 degrees.

Pale_Ale, could you explain the reason for the lagering temp change?

After I prime and bottle my ales, I usually keep it around the 23 degree mark for a week or two - you've said 18 degrees, do lagers prime at a lower temp or am I buggering my ales as well!?

The brew will take quite a while to fully ferment out at 2C thus the suggestion to use 2C if only lagering in secondary for 4 weeks. This would also depend of course on the gravity of the brew and the size of the yeast culture being added. How long primary was done and at what temp etc.

A standard brew in primary for 2 weeks at 8C will take another 1-2 weeks at 8C and twice that at 4C and nearly twice that again at 2C (or that is my understanding of it anyway). I think TL has a good thread on this somewhere but search is not finding it for me

The yeast needs to be within its "temp range" to fully ferment out. Thus lagers should be primed at the upper end of the range after finishing lagering at the lower end. They should then be cold conditioned in the bottle to further improve the brew.

[Heals]

So essentially I should be looking at doubling my time frames at those temperatures.

i.e. four weeks instead of two weeks @ 8 degress in the primary (to ferment)

six to eight weeks instead of four weeks @ 4 degrees in the secondary (to lager)

That sound about right?

[Kevnlis]

So essentially I should be looking at doubling my time frames at those temperatures.

i.e. four weeks instead of two weeks @ 8 degress in the primary (to ferment)

six to eight weeks instead of four weeks @ 4 degrees in the secondary (to lager)

That sound about right?

Not neccessarily though. It depends on alot of things. The markers you should probably use are to rack from primary when the "bubbling" has slowed right off. Leave in secondary to lager (real lagering isn't done in the secondary fermentor this is just the easiest and safest way IMHO) for a few weeks longer than when it finishes completely releasing CO2.

[Heals]

So basically leave in the primary at 8 degrees until it's "almost" finished fermenting, rack, then lager at 4 degrees until it has finished fermenting and then a few extra weeks on top of that - bottle - prime - drink.

Yes?

Now you've brought up 'real lagering' what exactly does that involve?

[Kevnlis]

The term lagering refers to storing the beer in bulk at a low temperature after it has finished the fermentation stage but before it is bottled.

Almost is probably too loose a word. I wouldn't ever wait more than 3 weeks to be sure to avoid the yeast imparting off flavours into the brew.

[Pale_Ale]

How much less sugar to prime?

At the moment I'm just using tallies with a standard measuring device (like the ones you get with most home brew kits). Use the half measure perhaps or slightly more than that...?

I'll revise my primary fermentation temp down to 8 degrees and lager for four weeks in the secondary at 4 degrees.

Pale_Ale, could you explain the reason for the lagering temp change?

After I prime and bottle my ales, I usually keep it around the 23 degree mark for a week or two - you've said 18 degrees, do lagers prime at a lower temp or am I buggering my ales as well!?

Hi Heals,

Alot less sugar. Use this calculator.
http://www.geocities.com/lesjudith/Alco ... lator.html
The other option is to bring the brew up to the temp you normally prime at, then it won't make a difference.

The reason for having a higher lagering temp (if only lagering for 4 weeks) is explained here:
http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter10-5.html

Basically the higher the temp, the quicker the beer conditions; however the beer will condition more smoothly if left for longer at lower temp.

23C is fine for carbonation, I'm sure you won't get any issues from this.

[The Carbonator]

So essentially I should be looking at doubling my time frames at those temperatures.

i.e. four weeks instead of two weeks @ 8 degress in the primary (to ferment)

six to eight weeks instead of four weeks @ 4 degrees in the secondary (to lager)

That sound about right?

It shouldnt take that long....


My lagers take 1.5 - 2 weeks in primary at 8*C- until about 1020
another 2 weeks in secondary at 8*C, until 1010
then I drop temp down to around 2*C for lagereing, which I do for around 4 weeks.

Hope this helps.

[Pale_Ale]

I think we are talking about a 2 stage process here though, Carbonator, i.e ferments out fully in the primary and is then racked for lagering. Also, with 4 weeks to lager you would be better off setting the temp @ 4-6C.

I normally give it a diacetyl rest as well which helps finish off the ferment and shaves a bit of time off (though minimal compare to the months it takes).

In your case Heals, assuming a 2 part process, you can probably ferment for 2-3 weeks @ 8C, then bring it up to 16-18C for a couple of days, then rack to secondary and lager for 4 weeks @4-6C.

[Heals]

No worries guys, thank you very much for all your input!

[The Carbonator]

So Pale Ale, if I am racking at 1020, should I then rack again at 1010 into lagereing vessel?

I thought that the tiny amount of yeast/sediment left in the fermenter after racking at 1020 would be ok to lager with for a few weeks.
Do you think this amount of yeast would contribute to off flavours?

I agree with the fact that 2*C needs longer. Patience is the problem. I might increase the temp slightly next time to accomodate.

Cheers

[Aussie Claret]

Just a suggestion:

1. Rather than just rehydrate the yeast try to make a starter for it and let that go for a few days before pitching to the wort. I make my starters in a clean 2L bottle 3/4 full of boiled cooled water (10C same as the lager will ferment at 35C will reak havok on your yeast!) add 250g or so of malt extract and some yeast nutrient if you have it. Give it a good shake and cap loosly (so that air can get out but not back in) shake it occassionaly while it is working. I usually make mine 48 hours before I plan to make the wort.

Sorry to disagree, but you shouldn't make a starter for dried yeasts as it is detrimental. Chill you wort to 10c and then pitch two packs of yeast, which is sufficient, no need to rehydrate.

2. Don't rack to secondary until you have done a diacetyle rest. After you have reached a gravity of about 1.020 allow the wort / beer to warm up to about 16c for two days.

3. You have the choice to either rack or not. YOU DO NOT NEED TO, it's upt to you I don't bother and simply CC as close to 0c as possible for a couple of weeks.

4. Bottle or keg after CCing for 2 weeks and allow to condition.

I'm sure some bright spark will raise the issue of autoalysis by not racking into secondary. Seriously unless you are going to leave beer sitting on the yeast cake for extended periods (months) and at higher temperatures you will not have any problem.

Keep you brewing techniques simple. There are some problems with racking after fermentation is complete, which increase the risks of contamination, firstly by not having any CO2 in the head space and secondly by the actual transfer (if everything isn't sanitized).

AC

[Trough Lolly]

Agree with AC here....dry lager yeast comes with compounds including trehalose and doesn't need feeding - it needs to have its cells reconstituted via rehydration with clean cool preboiled water, so unless you're brave and happy to pitch directly into the chilled wort, I'd add the yeast to a cup of cool preboiled water (no more than 10 degrees in difference to the pitching temp) for 30 mins on brewday before you pitch the rehydrated dry yeast.

Cheers,
TL

[Pale_Ale]

So Pale Ale, if I am racking at 1020, should I then rack again at 1010 into lagereing vessel?

I thought that the tiny amount of yeast/sediment left in the fermenter after racking at 1020 would be ok to lager with for a few weeks.
Do you think this amount of yeast would contribute to off flavours?

I agree with the fact that 2*C needs longer. Patience is the problem. I might increase the temp slightly next time to accomodate.

Cheers

Hi Carbonator,

IMO if you rack at 1020 (assuming a normal 1035-1045 gravity), you won't get any issues at all with off flavours.

I would always give it a diacetyl rest though which will finish off the fermentation nicely.

If patience is a problem I would think about lagering 5-6C for 4 weeks. At 2C, the conditioning process is very slow indeed.

[The Carbonator]

cool.

cheers mate

[Kevnlis]

Sorry to disagree, but you shouldn't make a starter for dried yeasts as it is detrimental. Chill you wort to 10c and then pitch two packs of yeast, which is sufficient, no need to rehydrate

Detrimental? Hows that work? I have always made starters for dry yeast and it has given me nothing but good results! Plus I am 100% sure the yeast is good before I pitch it. Sounds stupid to me not to make a starter for it!