Malt Extract Oktoberfest

[Trizza]

Here's an Oktoberfest recipe I'll be putting down in a few weeks:

3.5 Kg Amber Liquid Malt Extract
300 g Dark/Amber Crystal Malt (Grain)
300 g Cara Munich Malt (Grain)
200 g Toasted Malt (Grain)
100 g Chocolate Malt (Grain)
35g Hallertauer Hop Pellets @ 60 minutes
15g Hallertauer Hop Pellets @ 20 minutes
15g Hallertauer Hop Pellets @ 5 minutes
Saflager 34/70

I don't know much about water chemistry, so I'm not sure about adding 10g of gypsum to this recipe. Any ideas?

Hopefully it's going to be a ripper by october...

Trizza.

[wildschwein]

I'm not 100% sure about water chemistry either. But a general guide to know what sort of water you have have can be found inside your kettle. If you seem to have a lot of scale build-up on the element it means there is a lot of calcium which means its hard, or alkaline. If you don't your water is softer (more acidic). If your kettle element has lost any of its plating you've got very soft water. And if your water is soft you won't need to add gypsum.

[rwh]

Melbourne water is very soft.

[Trizza]

Does anyone know how to get toasted malt?

Can it be purchased from a HBS or have you got to do the work yourself?

Trizza.

[rwh]

You have to toast it yourself I think, starting with plain Ale base malt. I know that Charlie Papazian has instructions in The Complete Joy of Homebrewing. I'll see if I can find it when I get home.

[velophile]

Does anyone know how to get toasted malt?

Can it be purchased from a HBS or have you got to do the work yourself?

Trizza.

You can get Brown & Amber malts from some HBS or as said, toast some yourself. Spread some ale malt thinly on an oven tray. Give it a stir every 15 mins or so. I have heard it can smoke too!

Also note that Toasted, Brown or Amber malt will need mashing, not just steeping like cara/crystal.

[Trizza]

I've got the Charlie's book, although in the "Palilalia India Pale Ale" where toasted malt is used he just says that you preheat your oven to 180 and spread the malted barley and put it in for 10 mins.

Following this he steeps the grains with some crystal. I'm going shopping in G&G next week but I'm not sure what sort of malted barley to use for the toasting.

If I toasted some crystal would I get similar results?

Should I crack the grain before I toast it? Or after?

Trizza.

[rwh]

Yep, that's the instructions I was thinking of. Just use bog standard ale or pils malt. I thought he did a mini-mash after toasting it... doesn't he hold it at 66°C? I'd crack it after toasting, otherwise it might burn.

[rwh]

OK, found them. Page 166 of the 3rd edition of The Complete Joy of Homebrewing by Charlie Papazian.

Several recipes call for "toasted malt." While you can buy aromatic malts from your local homebrew supply store, home toasting provides an extra special dimension to the flavor and aroma qualities of your brews. Toasting malted barley is a simple process. Preheat your oven to 350 degrees F (177C) and spread the whole malted barley grain on a screen or cookie sheet. Within 10 minutes a wonderful aroma will emanate from your oven and the malted barley will have turned a slight reddish color. Remove the grain at this time. Prolonged toasting will turn the inside of the malted barley a deeper nut brown and will contribute a roasted flavor. The nutty malt aromatics of a 10-minute toasting are desired for many recipes

[Trough Lolly]

Here's an Oktoberfest recipe I'll be putting down in a few weeks:

3.5 Kg Amber Liquid Malt Extract
300 g Dark/Amber Crystal Malt (Grain)
300 g Cara Munich Malt (Grain)
200 g Toasted Malt (Grain)
100 g Chocolate Malt (Grain)
35g Hallertauer Hop Pellets @ 60 minutes
15g Hallertauer Hop Pellets @ 20 minutes
15g Hallertauer Hop Pellets @ 5 minutes
Saflager 34/70

I don't know much about water chemistry, so I'm not sure about adding 10g of gypsum to this recipe. Any ideas?

Hopefully it's going to be a ripper by october...

Trizza.

G'day Trizza,
My all grain Oktoberfest has had some quite favourable reviews. The recipe is here if you're interested.
Now I know that you're after a malt extract recipe, but my concern with your's is that it's going to make a pretty dark beer with all that Amber LME, Dark Crystal, Caramunich and Choc Malt. Looks like a good dunkelbock recipe!
If, for example, I was to convert my recipe into an extract bill, I'd be using 2/3rds light and 1/3 amber LME, and steep 200g of Crystal, 200g of Caramunich II and 60g of Choc malt. The hops and yeast look fine.

Cheers,
TL

[Trizza]

Thanks for the feedback TL, much appreciated.

I've cut back on the Amber malt extract and the grains to your above recommendation.

For use of the Toasted Malt I'm going to get a bag of uncrushed malted barley and follow Palmer's instructions. I'm going to get the stuff at G&G but i still not sure if to ask for Ale/Pils/Crystal or anything else though.
If do use a malt requiring mashing, will it matter if I just go ahead and steep it?

Trizza.

[Trough Lolly]

Thanks for the feedback TL, much appreciated.

I've cut back on the Amber malt extract and the grains to your above recommendation.

For use of the Toasted Malt I'm going to get a bag of uncrushed malted barley and follow Palmer's instructions. I'm going to get the stuff at G&G but i still not sure if to ask for Ale/Pils/Crystal or anything else though.
If do use a malt requiring mashing, will it matter if I just go ahead and steep it?

Trizza.

Good to see you pull back on the Amber - it can sometimes totally dominate the malt flavour profile of a beer and an Okkie needs to shine with melanoidin complexity that you get from the Toasted malts.
If you're going to toast your own malt (good on you!) I'd just use some ale malt (Joe White etc is fine) and make sure that you don't overheat the tray of malt - if you have an overhead extraction fan, make sure you use it - it's easy to smoke the kitchen out and get SWMBO pretty pissed off!

Your last sentence is important - if you use a malt that must be mashed, eg, a base malt such as ale, pilsener, wheat, you MUST mash it in order to get the sugars out of the grains - remember, the unmashed malt has starch and enzymes - no sugars.
When you mix / mash-in the crushed grains in water at the right temp (around 66C) to a thick porridge like consistency, the enzymes get at the starch molecules and convert the starches into sugars which is what we want to extract from the mash to make beer with through a sparge or drain process.
Some malt has already gone through this conversion - crystal malt and any of the cara malts are examples of that - eg Caramunich, Carawheat etc. They can be steeped because somebody else did the conversion of starch to sugar via enzyme conversion and they're ready to be steeped in water to extract their sugars.
So, what does this mean? Well, if you don't mash the grains that need to be converted, you will end up with a hazy starch laden beer that has less sugars than you anticipated in it. Today's well modified malts will happily convert between 60 to 70C so in effect, a steep is a mini mash of sorts, just using a lot more water than a mash does. So, my recommendation would be to steep grains that are already converted and have the crystallised sugars on the grain that you effectively wash off with a steep. As for the unconverted malted grains, you must mash them in order to extract their sugars for your beer. Ask your HBS guy if the grains need to be mashed or not - if they don't know, they shouldn't sell grains!
Hope this makes sense - let me know if further clarification is necessary.

Cheers,
TL

[wildschwein]

I'm not 100% sure about water chemistry either. But a general guide to know what sort of water you have have can be found inside your kettle. If you seem to have a lot of scale build-up on the element it means there is a lot of calcium which means its hard, or alkaline. If you don't your water is softer (more acidic). If your kettle element has lost any of its plating you've got very soft water. And if your water is soft you won't need to add gypsum.

Seems I was way off with this.Got very confused, as I thought gypsum (calciuam sulfate) was used to soften water but it is actually used to harden it. So, if you have soft water and want to emulate darkish beers from hard water areas in the world adding gypsum is probably the way to go. Apparently the hardening of the water enhances the bittering effect of hops. However, I think I have access to pretty soft tap water here in the Perth hills and I make quite a lot of brownish German style beers and haven't found the absence of carbonates as detrimental to my brews.

[Trizza]

I'm not 100% sure about water chemistry either. But a general guide to know what sort of water you have have can be found inside your kettle. If you seem to have a lot of scale build-up on the element it means there is a lot of calcium which means its hard, or alkaline. If you don't your water is softer (more acidic). If your kettle element has lost any of its plating you've got very soft water. And if your water is soft you won't need to add gypsum.

Seems I was way off with this.Got very confused, as I thought gypsum (calciuam sulfate) was used to soften water but it is actually used to harden it. So, if you have soft water and want to emulate darkish beers from hard water areas in the world adding gypsum is probably the way to go. Apparently the hardening of the water enhances the bittering effect of hops. However, I think I have access to pretty soft tap water here in the Perth hills and I make quite a lot of brownish German style beers and haven't found the absence of carbonates as detrimental to my brews.

Given that Melbourne water is very soft, I'm going to be adding some Calcium Sulphate to this brew.
Quantities are a bit of a puzzle though, I'm not sure if to add 10g, 15g or even 20g to the brew.

TL,

Given your suggestion, I'm going to make sure that the guys at G&G give me a grain for toasting that does not require a steep. I was completely unaware that putting in unmashed base malts would detriment my brew.

Mashing is something I'd love to get into, but cannot afford the time or money right now. I'm going to stick to Malt-Extract brewing for at least the next year or so I can improve my skills before moving on any further.

Thanks for clarification on the issue.

Trizza.

[Trough Lolly]

Given that Melbourne water is very soft, I'm going to be adding some Calcium Sulphate to this brew.
Quantities are a bit of a puzzle though, I'm not sure if to add 10g, 15g or even 20g to the brew.

TL,
Given your suggestion, I'm going to make sure that the guys at G&G give me a grain for toasting that does not require a steep. I was completely unaware that putting in unmashed base malts would detriment my brew.
Mashing is something I'd love to get into, but cannot afford the time or money right now. I'm going to stick to Malt-Extract brewing for at least the next year or so I can improve my skills before moving on any further.
Thanks for clarification on the issue.
Trizza.

G'day Trizza - Canberra water is quite soft. It's great as-is for pale ales and pale lagers, but when I want to brew an IPA, amber, stout, bock, etc, I use gypsum at the rate of 1 level teaspoon in the mashtun for a 5 Gallon brew. Sometimes it goes up to 1.5 teaspoons but I wouldn't add too much as it can have, erm, unanticipated side-effects if you add too much gypsum in your mashtun...It's important to get a mineral profile of your water beforehand so you know how much Calcium Sulphate you need to add to get the desired effect.
Have a read of John Palmer's info on salts hereif you want to know more about it.
As for toasting malts - you need to use a base malt to begin with. If you only lightly toast the malt, you should mash the toasted malt otherwise you'll get the toasty flavours, but also starch haze, in the beer. The longer you toast the malt the darker the grains will be - to the extent that prolonged roasting will denature (destroy) the enzymes and the grains can only be steeped - eg black/patent malt or roasted barley.

Once again, John Palmer has a guide to toasting your own malt -
here
Cheers,
TL

[Trizza]

Thanks mate, given everything a read, and might just add a tiny bit of the gypsum to see what differences it might make. I'm also going to read up on the complete guide to homebrewing, as its got lots of info about water chemistry.

I'm using some pilsner malt for the toasting, and preparing a minimash when it comes time to using it. My minimash is just going to be holding the grains at 68 degrees for an hour, and then proceeding to strain and continue brewing as normal.

Trizza.

[Trough Lolly]

Sounds good Trizza - before you know it, you'll be steadily increasing the size of the mash and you'll be doing all grain beers in no time!!

Temperature is king when mashing - 66C is the middle point, for dryer crisper beers (like pils) I'd mash at around 62C, for full bodied beers (eg bocks, stouts etc) mash at 68C - it does make a difference due to the amylase enzymes you encourage at those respective temps to convert the starches in the mash.

Cheers,
TL

[Trizza]

Sounds good Trizza - before you know it, you'll be steadily increasing the size of the mash and you'll be doing all grain beers in no time!!

I've been in this game for just over a year, and ever increasingly getting the feeling I'm getting in way over my head with this ambitions brewing. However, if the results are there, I'll have no reason to complain.

Also, this brew will be put down this week.

Trizza

[James L]

Speaking of oktoberfest lagers,

has anyone used the Wyeast 2633 Oktoberfest Lager Blend?

Its only available between july and sept at my local HBS, and i was planning on using this yeast for a lager similar to the one in this thread, and was wondering whether its worth getting.

James