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Just taste-tested my latest Coopers lager. Smoked fish! just like a previous Dark Ale I did - exactly the same taste. Which is really odd, because the Dark Ale was made with all malt and US-05, whilst the lager was S-23 and dry hopped with Cascade. Obviously the lager is still very green, only being in the bottle 2 weeks (fermented for 5 weeks) and there is still a slight sulphury smell/taste, but I'm really surprised at the fishy taste. Carbonation is fine already, but I'm wondering how long I will have to leave and if it will ever lose that weird taste? Has anyone else experienced anything similar with lager? Recipe was:
Can Coopers Lager
220 gm LDME (all I had left)
600 gm Dextrose
Saflager S-23
Pitched at 18 deg.
Dry hopped after 3 weeks with 10 gm Cascade pellets (just for the hell of it - can't stand Saazy type hops)
Average temp. 10-12 deg C.
FG: 1008
Nope! Had one of the "Smoked Fish Dark Ales" last night - still fishy! That and the Lager were the only ones I've had this taste with and then, last night, I tasted the Cerveza I've put over the S23 yeastcake from the Lager and lo and behold - same fishy taste. Both the Lager and the Cerveza have late Cascade additions but it can't be that because the Dark Ale was hopped with EKG. Because I don't have much experience in tasting beers I don't know whether this is a "normal" taste or not. Hope it disappears with the Lager and Cerveza!
Anna I think I can see a problem with your recipe.
Can Coopers Lager
220 gm LDME (all I had left)
600 gm Dextrose
2 smoked kippers
Saflager S-23
Pitched at 18 deg.
Dry hopped after 3 weeks with 10 gm Cascade pellets (just for the hell of it - can't stand Saazy type hops)
Average temp. 10-12 deg C.
FG: 1008
I don't know what's causing it Anna, although I personally wouldn't worry about it for another 3 months at least. It will more than likely take care of itself.
Cheers
Okay. You've got the same (very non-beery) flavour running across 3 beers of differing styles and no common ingredients? Do you think this could be process related? There isn't a yeast that promotes fishy esters. There isn't a grain that tastes fishy. There is a problem here. Look at everything you're doing as though it is someone else doing it. What corners might you be cutting because you're now "experienced"? We've all done this in one way or another (even if not in the brewing realm). Which of your processes might be able to be improved (even if they have worked fine up until now). You were very unhappy with me for offering similar advice with your other recent flavour problems but then, as now, I only suggest these things because I don't want anyone to be making beer they are unhappy with.
Nuke everything. Change your cleaning and sanitation products completely. Strip every part of your kit to bits and clean, clean, clean. Consider new fermenters. Even if you do get new fermenters, strip everything down, change your regime completely. Look at your process - can you be certain everything that goes into your brews is sanitary? Even look down the scissors you cut your yeast open with. Change how you clean and sanitise your bottles. Make sure you pull your bottling wand apart with everything else above. Consider using cooled boiled water for topping up to volume. These are just a small handful of things you could look at.
Fishiness is not a normal taste in beer. It just isn't. Even if you Google 'beer "fishy taste"' the first hit that has nothing to do with fish is this thread. This is a weird problem and there is no quick, easy answer (and I suspect no quick, easy solution).
OK Bum - I'll do it! It does seem very logical that there is a sanitation related problem seeing that 2 of the beers are completely different, and the other one used the yeast from one of the fishy ones. I'll change my sanitiser to iodophor (I think that's what Warra recommends - what do you use?). Does that need to be rinsed? Of course I always do take everything takeapartable apart but I probably have got a bit slack with the scissors, etc. Anything would be better than 'RHAGOFO' !
I'm not levelling the blame at any one thing. And certainly not any one product. And most definitely not Warra's advice. I'm not saying the stuff you use is no good. I'm sure it is fine. But perhaps a shake up will give a scare to whatever nasties are doing this for you.
Regardless, I use napisan for cleaning and starsan for no-rinse sanitising. Every now and then everything gets a bleach/vinegar soak just to keep any nasties on their toes.
I didn't mean to assume that you aren't pulling things apart - just thinking aloud to see if it can prompt you to think of something you might be able to change/research and hopefully put this bad run behind you.
The mind is a very powerful beast and one of the main reasons behind double blind trials in medical science.
Are you sure the flavour is smoked fish?
When you first discovered this did someone else tell you that before you came up with the idea yourself? ie. did someone (your husband perhaps) taste the beer first and say 'this beer tastes like smoked fish' before you had tasted the beer?
For example. Think about tim tams. Can you almost taste them?
Since i haven't tasted any of the beers that you describe as smoked fish i am thinking outside of the square.
Smoked fish is a description i have never heard anyone use about beer on any of the brewing forums i frequent. But given your comments in the what are you drinking now thread you have a very inexperienced palate when it comes to beer i wonder whether there is some other way of describing the flavour.
That said - Bum's idea to pull everything apart and sanitise it would be where i would also start. Weird/off flavours are usually a sign of an infection, poor yeast health, oxidation etc.
EDIT - Like Bum i use napisan (sodium percarbonate) for cleaning and orthosphosphoric acid (i make my own but its the main component of starsan) for sanitising. Every now and then, particularly after a beer hasn't behaved normally during fermentation i give the fermenters a several day soak in bleach.
drsmurto wrote:
For example. Think about tim tams. Can you almost taste them?
I can take it no longer. I'm going to have a Tim Tam (or two).
Perhaps you're on to something. "Fishy" is a very odd descriptor for anything in beer - even an infection. Anna, any chance you could get someone else (a non-expert or even non-beer drinker) to have a taste and see if they come up with fishy too?
Hi Doc! What you are saying has been in the back of my mind all along - that maybe it's only me who perceives the taste as smoked fish. My husband doesn't mind it, although when I said that's what it tasted like, he agreed (power of suggestion?). But he did say (of the Dark Ale) "it's OK - tastes a bit like Tooheys Old". But then when the lager and the Cerveza threw up the same taste (to me) I started to suspect a problem. Maybe, after all, it's just my inexperienced tastebuds - evidenced by the fact that I actually LIKE VB and can't stand Chimay Blue or anything with Saaz in it !
Anyol'hoo, I'll take Bum's advice and revise my regime just in case.
I was under the impression that there had been un-fishy brews between the Dark Ale and the lager, or did I misunderstand? If there was okay brews between the marine-esque drops, then I would be looking more at brew day processes than bombing the crap out of your fermenter with industrial-strength cleaning agents. Not to say that it isn't a good idea to regularly pull apart your kit and change up your cleaning routine, just that the issue may lie elsewhere.
...but that's just echoing what Bum already said, so this is probably a pointless post, really.
bullfrog wrote: so this is probably a pointless post, really.
Not at all. I agree that it is most likely a process based issue - sanitation processes are just the obvious one to look at for me when talking about somewhat 'random' off flavours. I agree that Anna should be having a good, hard look at all aspects of her process just in case there's something she's missed - even something she's been doing forever and is only having a problem with it now.
Another possible approach, Anna, might be to go back to an old, tested recipe and use the processes you used then and see if it still presents as fishy then slowly re-introduce your current methods and see which, if any, bring this taste back in. It could even be something environmental beyond your control (but really strict sanitation could combat that). Having said all that I would still be seriously considering an extremely pedantic clean up of all brew gear as this fishiness might now be somewhere in your gear even if it wasn't the source of the problem.
Yes Bullfrog - had some fine brews in between - Sparkling Ale, another Dark Ale and a couple of Pale Ales.
I'll follow all your suggestions, but I guess the first thing is to find someone who is not a megaswill drinker and get their opinion of the stuff that's already in the bottle. The lager is still very green though - only been in the bottle 3 weeks, and I'm guessing it will be the same with the Cerveza seeing that it was fermented with S-23 (?).
They didn't speculate as to what caused the taste/smell but the other notes such as cabbage-like may provoke thoughts from others here.
Emu Export
A cidery, salty affair, Emu Export put our beer tasters off with its fishy, cabbage-like smell. Overall, a flat and disappointing beer.
Origin: Australia (WA)
Alc/Vol: 4.9%
Tasting Info: Beer tasting 2 on 03/06/2005; beer sample 8 out of 20
Beer test results for Emu Export
In a blind test, our beer tasters came to the following conclusions: Appearance: Sparkling bright and pale in colour.
Aroma/Bouquet: Fishy, cabbage-like smell.
Taste: Cidery, salty taste with a grapefruity aftertaste. Lacks carbonation.
Summary: Not recommended.
In a blind test of Emu Export , our tasters commented:
“Another boring, slightly bitter, smelly, pissy lager. Not really acceptable. Has a slightly pungent aftertaste.â€
“Bit of an off/odd aftertaste. Tastes kinda acidic.â€
“Got nothing to say on this one.â€
“Fishy smell, salty taste, sour aftertaste. Brrrr!â€
just like a previous Dark Ale I did - exactly the same taste. Which is really odd, because the Dark Ale was made with all malt and US-05, whilst the lager was S-23 and dry hopped with Cascade. Obviously the lager is still very green, only being in the bottle 2 weeks (fermented for 5 weeks) and there is still a slight sulphury smell/taste, but I'm really surprised at the fishy taste. Carbonation is fine already, but I'm wondering how long I will have to leave and if it will ever lose that weird taste? 
