Larger Secondary Fermentation Temp and Timing.

[Damn]

Hi all again,

Getting mixed info on the secondary Larger fermentation temp of my 2nd only brew. So, a few of questions.

1. I have an average of 9-10c in my basement. Is 4 weeks the expected time for primary fermentation?
2. Once my Larger is bottled what Temp should I do the secondary fermentation at?.....
3. How long should they spend at this temp in secondary stage?

Also I may try castor sugar and a scoop on this batch rather than drops.

Once bottled I could move them straight into storage which has a slightly higher average temp of 12-16.

Thanks again.

[warra48]

At 9 to 10ºC it will probably take about 3 weeks to ferment in primary. Don't rely on airlocks or time, however, your hydrometer is your friend and the only reliable guide on that issue.

Generally, most brewers will rack to another container for lagering in bulk. A few brave souls (me included) will lager in primary. In either case, you need to drop the temperature of your fridge as low as you can get it for as long as you can stand it. You could lager in the bottle, but it's better done in bulk. A bulk container takes up a lot less space in the fridge than a batch load of bottles.

I use caster sugar to prime my bottles. Be aware caster sugar is finer grained than table sugar, and the standard measure will dispense more caster sugar by weight than table sugar for the same volume. You don't want to overcarbonate. I have cut down my dispensers to allow for this. I also weigh the total sugar used in each batch and keep the details in my BeerSmith recipe notes, so I always know precisely to what level I carbonate my batches.

Once I've bottled my brews, I just store them in my beer cellar at ambient temperature until I'm ready to chill them for consumption.

[Damn]

Does that mean I do a secondary ferment even lower than primary. I can get my fridge to form icicles on drinks, so maybe not that low?
Is there an ideal Temp?

[squirt in the turns]

Does that mean I do a secondary ferment even lower than primary. I can get my fridge to form icicles on drinks, so maybe not that low?
Is there an ideal Temp?

Yes, your lager secondary fermentation temperature should be lower than primary. How low, how long you should take to lower to that temperature (so as not to shock your yeast) and what container to do it in are all matters of some debate. See here for some good (if in-depth) info.

Personally, I have had good results lagering in primary, as warra suggests, simply slowly dropping the temperature to 0-1c as the beer gets close to FG, then leaving it for another 4 weeks (so the total time in primary was ~7 weeks). However, the link I provided advises against that due to the permeability of plastic, and also raises concerns about yeast autolysis causing off flavours (which are concerns shared by experienced lager brewers on this forum). I now prefer to slowly drop the temperature of the primary, then rack to a keg, lager for however long (depends of stock levels ), then rack again to a serving keg (usually via a filter).

As you're bottling, you really have 2 options, as detailed again in the link above: bottle condition warm (or at the same temp as primary) to carbonate, then lager; or lager then bottle condition, possibly having to add fresh yeast.

Warra, when you do this, do you find it necessary to add more yeast? If not, how long are you able to lager in primary and retain enough yeast viability to carbonate your bottles?

Remember, Damn, that when lagering, you're not just trying to achieve yeast flocculation and sedimentation of other trub in your beer as you would be when cold conditioning an ale - you're trying to get the yeast to move into a different metabolic state in which it continues to actively do stuff to the flavour of your beer. This is why lager brewers worry about yeast shock when dropping the temperature, and also why icicles (or frozen beer) are probably not a good thing!

[warra48]

Warra, when you do this, do you find it necessary to add more yeast? If not, how long are you able to lager in primary and retain enough yeast viability to carbonate your bottles?

Never had a problem with carbonation of any lagers I've brewed.

My last one was in primary for 3 weeks at 10ºC, then I dropped it over a few days to 2.5ºC, and left it for 7 more weeks. I did use 4 packs of S23 for a 25 litre batch! Didn't do a diacetyl rest, as I pitch cold, and didn't think it was necessary.
I bottled straight from primary. They carbed up very nicely over about a month.

I've never added more yeast at bottling.

[emnpaul]

G'day Damn,

I think the use of the term secondary fermentation can be somewhat confusing. When you say secondary fermentation do you mean carbonating the bottles or racking to a secondary vessel for lagering purposes?

If it is the latter then I reckon the information Warra and SITT have provided is the go. If it is just to carbonate your bottles I'd just give them about four weeks at your fermentation temperature, if possible, or otherwise just try to keep the temperature as stable as you can during the carbonation period and then cellar your bottles for as long as you can keep your hands off them.

[Damn]

Thanks Fellas,

Like a bull at a gate I cooked this larger and started asking questions later. I'm just getting to know the terms. I bought a second fermenter as I think I'll consume faster than I can brew one batch. Firstly, I accept this is probably a bit advanced for my 3rd brew, so please consider I've already scolded myself.

Organising another fridge now.

Ok, a couple more questions.

1. Do I need to do a diacetyl rest as I pitched my yeast (Saflager) @ 25c, just sprinkled on. I can move my fermenter into the room next door which has an higher average (13-16c).
a. How long to rest?
b. Do I need taste it to check if it needs a rest?
c. At what stage do I do the rest (I'm up to day 12, O.G. 1.055, S.G. 1.035 approx)

2. Can I just move my fermenter into a fridge on the warmest setting? Then slowly crank down to 2.5C over a few days or how long?



Warra, is your primary vessel plastic that you are largering in? Do I need to get a glass carboy or what do you suggest? I won't be doing kegs in the foreseeable future.
If I rack this to another vessel is this the time to add some more yeast? (can I use an left over ale yeast?).

I hope I'm stuffing this larger up. I chit myself when I did a SG reading the other night....it stunk (sulfur,rotten eggs), but realised this is normal for larger.

Damn (Damian)

[Damn]

Oh and sorry Paul,

Yes, I mean bottle conditioning.

[squirt in the turns]

Firstly, I accept this is probably a bit advanced for my 3rd brew, so please consider I've already scolded myself.

Don't worry about that, mate, it's your beer and you can brew whatever you like. You're down south and it's winter, so brewing lagers (only 1 "r" ) is the smart thing to do. You'll just have to get your head around some slightly more advanced processes a bit earlier in your brewing career than most. It's good that you're on here asking the necessary questions instead of just following the kit instructions and making terrible beer!

1. Do I need to do a diacetyl rest as I pitched my yeast (Saflager) @ 25c, just sprinkled on. I can move my fermenter into the room next door which has an higher average (13-16c).
a. How long to rest?
b. Do I need taste it to check if it needs a rest?
c. At what stage do I do the rest (I'm up to day 12, O.G. 1.055, S.G. 1.035 approx)

As you pitched warm (a little too warm: with a few exceptions, no yeast should be pitched warmer than the low 20s), a rest probably will be necessary. Which Saflager yeast did you use, S-23 or W-34/70? I've never used either (only ever used liquids for lagers), but others may be able to advise you on how much diacetyl to expect. A diacetyl rest should be done at about 18c or so.

a. A couple of days seems to be the norm. I believe you want it to ferment out during the rest, so it won't harm your beer to leave it a bit longer.
b. Probably a good idea. If you get diacetyl, it definitely needs a rest. If not... well, some brewers report not being able to detect diacetyl in primary, only for it to show up later due to undetectable precursors being present in the beer. So... if you detect it, you have peace of mind that you're doing the right thing by resting. But do one anyway regardless.
c. The answer to this is always different depending on who you ask . "Conventional wisdom" says anything from 2/3 or 3/4 of the way through fermentation, or as late as when it's 2 points away from F.G. You can probably expect it to finish up around 1.013. However, that will vary according to what went into the brew. If you post your recipe, someone here will be able to work out a predicted F.G. Or, for more accuracy, draw off a sample, keep it at room temp for a few days until it ferments out and see where the gravity ends up. See "Fast Ferment Test" on the Brauskaiser page I posted before.

2. Can I just move my fermenter into a fridge on the warmest setting? Then slowly crank down to 2.5C over a few days or how long?

Drop the temp by 1 or 2 degrees per day, to ease the yeast into the lagering phase. Aim for 1c or even 0c if you can get it there. The lower temps will cause the yeast to take longer to "clean up" the flavour, but the result will be smoother.

[Damn]

1 x can coopers heritage pilsner
1 x can coopers wheat malt
20 x saaz hops for 20 mins
20 x saaz hops for 2 minutes after flameout
dry hop at about day 8 with 40 grams of saaz
(My local HBS told to me dry hop on 2nd day but I wasn't sure it was fermenting for some days later)
O.G. 1.055

[Damn]

& Saflager W-34/70

[squirt in the turns]

What is the volume of this batch? With those fermentables, you would have had to have mixed it up to about 17.5 litres to get an O.G. of 1.055. If you mixed it to the standard kit volume of 23 L, you'd get an O.G. closer to 1.042. If it's the latter, you may have drawn off a concentrated sample when you took the gravity reading. Kit brewers often find a bit of undissolved goop can get into the tap and throw off the O.G. reading, so the advice is usually to discard the first couple of hundred ml and take another sample.

If your O.G. of 1.055 is accurate, you can expect it to finish up between 1.012 and 1.014. If you mixed it to 23 L, then it would probably finish around 1.009 to 1.011. So diacetyl rest at about 1.023 or 1.018 respectively (if following the ethos of resting at about 3/4 of the way to potential max. attenuation).

On another topic: that's a lot of late hops for a lager, especially the dry hops! You might find it gets grassy on the nose as a consequence. 60g of late hops (80g if you count your 20 min addition as "late") would be a fair bit in a hop-driven style like an American Pale Ale. Can I ask where you got the recipe? Why the wheat malt and why so many hops? What's it supposed to be? The answer to that last question doesn't matter - that's the beauty of homebrew: you can make whatever you like. I'm just curious.

Also, most people don't dry hop 2 days into primary. Fermentation will drive off so many of the aroma compounds that it'd be a bit of a waste of hops. 8 days is probably fine. A common practice is to dry hop in the secondary container (if you rack) after fermentation has pretty much finished. Did the LHBS explain the logic of their suggested hopping schedule? The sad truth is that most of them don't know what they're talking about. Best to just nod politely and then post questions here.

[Damn]

Sorry, Although I'm only on my 3rd ever brew I gave the reading of my 2nd brew (an ale) the O.G. was 1.045. The volume was 21L

As far as the recipe goes. I got here from Dasher. I was looking for a lager recipe, namely a stella clone. (on another note is that Belguims fosters? I don't care, I like it).

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5055&p=77503&hilit=stella#p77503

Thanks again for all your help. Still haven't decided whether to larger in bottles or larger in my plastic fermenter and if so to add a little more yeast and when.