Oxyper and cleaning bottles

[Oliver]

I bottled two brews at the weekend and used oxyper (sodium percarbonate) to clean bottles for the first time.

Holding each bottle up to the light to check their state, I found about half looked nice and clean, half had some slight marks on the inside and two were in a parlous state because I'd put them back in the Beer Cupboard without rinsing them.

I decided to put some oxyper solution in all of the bottles, even the clean ones, to make sure they were sparkling. So I poured about 100ml of the solution into each bottle and gave it a shake, then left it for a while and gave it another shake.

When the time came to empty and rinse the bottles what came out, even from those that looked clean, was absolutely disgusting. In all cases the water was at least a bit dirty looking, and from some bottles came a dark brown liquid.

The two bottles that had the yeast cake dried onto them didn't require scrubbing with a bottlebrush, just an extra-vigorous and extended shake.

The experience has certainly given me pause for thought about whether I wash all my bottles in future before bottling. Sure, it'll add time to the process but I'm not sure I want to be putting my beer in bottles with invisible crud on them.

(And yes, I could keg, but that would involve some robust discussions with the Minister for War and Finance.)

Anyone else had a similar experience with the wonders of oxyper?

And does anyone else clean their bottles before each use?

Cheers,

Oliver

[big dave]

I have cleaned and washed all my bottles with very hot soapy water and rinsed with white king solution prior to bottling, but have been a little concerned about the ones that dodged the rinse (once a few longies have been drunk).

What is this Oxyper? Where do you get him?

[Oliver]

Hi BD,

Sodium percarbonate (or sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate) is the active ingredient in laundry cleaners such as Napisan. Some use Napisan or the equivalent to clean their equipment, but the stuff you'd buy at your homebrew shop won't contain all the other stuff that Napisan does, such as fragrances, etc.

From Wikipedia:

Dissolved in water, it yields a mixture of hydrogen peroxide (which eventually decomposes to water and oxygen) and sodium carbonate ("soda ash")

It's great stuff. Do yourself a favour

Cheers,

Oliver

[matr]

I use this all the time to clean everything and as a no rinse sanitiser (as well as iodophor). It's great for moving stubborn stains & muck (especially muck at the bottom of the keg).

I bought mine from Beer Belly. Cheap as.http://www.beerbelly.com.au/cleaning.html. However any HBS should stock it.

I also use napisan if I'm cleaning in the laundry.

Cheers, Mat.

[rotten]

I use sodium percarbonate,vanish-napisan-UNSCENTED. My process is rinse every bottle after drinking, next morning is O.K. Before bottling half fill with solution, shake, pour out, rinse. I make a sink full at a time and do say 26 longies at a time. I do this for every brew, takes me about 45 mins to an hour to be ready to bottle, including time lugging from shed etc. Have never noticed anything wrong with this method, apart from the time to do it

[billybushcook]

The other day I noticed a couple of my bottles had a slight stain on the inside after a recent Honey Porter I did (fermenter had it too) so I used some Brewcraft pink stain remover which cleaned them up nice.

Mick.

[Scoot49]

Local HBS suggested sodium metabisulphite.

Pack says tablespoon per 100ml, but he said a teaspoon for half the fermenter should be heaps?

Would say filling the laundry basin with water, and using 3-4 teaspoons of this do the trick?

[Bum]

I've never used sodium met before but I understand it is a no-rinse sanitiser. This shouldn't be used in place of a proper clean - it is done in addition to cleaning your gear/bottles effectively first.

It is also said to throw some pretty nasty fumes (so watch out for that if you're asthmatic). Another suggested problem with sodium met is that in order for it to work effectively it needs to air dry completely on your gear before you use it. For me a sodium percarbonate soak, rinse and a short contact time no-rinse sanitiser (I use Starsan but there's plenty of good ones) is such an easier way to go.

[Scoot49]

ok cool,
I rinse my bottles out when I finish with them, and soaked my fermenter with sodium met before putting my canadian blonde in (had been rinsed with hot water prior to this)

I'll finish the Sodium Met, then get some of the other stuff next time.

[warra48]

Sodium Metabisulphate is potentially nasty stuff, and certainly not the preferred chemical these days, for cleaning or sanitising. As mentioned already, there are many better alternatives.

It's efficacy relies on its fumes, not on liquid contact, so you need to wait for it to totally airdry for it to have any effect.

[bullfrog]

It's efficacy relies on its fumes, not on liquid contact, so you need to wait for it to totally airdry for it to have any effect.

And that being said, try to avoid inhaling too deeply when you're mixing it up. Enough to give even non-asthmatics serious breathing difficulties!

[Oliver]

Having recently switched from sodium met to idophor as a sanitiser and started using sodium percarbonate for cleaning, all I can say is that I wish I'd done it years ago.

One huge benefit of idophor is that it's no-rinse. Just make sure all surfaces are coated in the solution, leave for 20 mins then drain thoroughly. Job done

Sodium met is nasty, nasty stuff. See here for a horror story.

Cheers,

Oliver

[billybushcook]

As it turns out, without knowing it I have just switched from sodium met too,
I didn't realise it but the Brigalow sanitiser you get at Big W is sodium met.

I had been mixing up the recomended 50g in 4.5L of cold water in a fermenter, throwing in my spoon & any hosing etc, give a good splash around & leave for an hr or more while I was brewing then drain & give two rinses with a 1.8L kettle full of boiling water.
I noticed it was pretty fumie but never had any problem with it.

Recently aquired some "no rinse" sanitizer from LHBS, Morgans brand I think & it turns out to be Hydrogen peroxide
Not keen on leaving this stuff on my equipment either!!!!

Has any one else used this???

Mick.

[Oliver]

Hi Mick,

If you look at the third post in this thread you'll see that sodium percarbonate yields hydrogen peroxide and sodium carbonate when mixed with water (according to Wikipedia, anyway!).

It will break down into water and oxygen.

So fear not

Oliver

[Bum]

I don't know if straight hydrogen peroxide behaves differently to the hydrogen peroxide resulting from sodium percarbonate but sod perc is neither a sanitiser nor no-rinse. Best to do a bit of non-LHBS sourced research on that one, Mick.

[matr]

but sod perc is neither a sanitiser nor no-rinse.

Hmmm. This I did not know. Some do market it as a no rinse sanitiser. http://www.brewcraftsa.com.au/showProduct/Sterilising+and+Cleaning/Sterilising+Agents/55100 Yes I know it's brewcraft!!

I have been using it that way though with no sign of infection. May just lucky? Maybe is a sanitiser?

More info: http://www.fact-index.com/s/so/sodium_percarbonate.html

Quote: "Sodium percarbonate is effective as a disinfectant on both bacteria and virus" Does this qualify it as a sanitiser?

[Bum]

Sorry, I should point out that I'm not speaking from a scientific background, rather repeating conventional wisdom. I'd be happy to accept any correction on the matter.

I wouldn't like to discuss the specific anti-bacterial and anti-viral properties of any product as that is well outside of my knowledge and experience but the word 'disinfectant' leans much more in the sterilisation camp rather than the sanitising camp. Hardly conclusive, I know. The rest of the points raised in your link also seem to be talking about cleaning rather than sanitising to me too but, as I say, I'm no scientist so I could be reading it incorrectly.

Would just like to point out that my post shouldn't be read as being anti-sodium percarbonate. I use a no-name napisan in cleaning all my gear and think it is a terrific product for that purpose.

If you're not coping infections then it is hard to refute your method but it is my understanding that sodium perc (at conventional dilution rates) is not no-rinse.

[rotten]

My understanding is sodium percarbonate is not no rinse. This is all I use for everything, and everything gets rinsed. Apart from 1 mishap in a cube which was my fault, I have had no dramas.
Cheers

[matr]

My understanding is sodium percarbonate is not no rinse. This is all I use for everything, and everything gets rinsed. Apart from 1 mishap in a cube which was my fault, I have had no dramas.
Cheers

There are quite a few resources that say it is no rinse.
http://www.basicsofhomebrewing.com/bohb38percarbonate.html
http://www.winemakersdepot.com/One-Step-Cleanser-1-lb--P217.aspx

Here is some more data. http://www.inchem.org/documents/sids/sids/15630894.pdfHaving a quick read I have no issue in "no rinsing" this product.

It turns to hydrogen peroxide In fluid which is FDA approved and can even be used as toothpaste.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_peroxide?wasRedirected=true

Stop rinsing people!!!

Cheers, Mat.

[Oliver]

I bottled a beer this afternoon and used 26 bottles that I'd rinsed thoroughly after consuming their contents then put in the beer cupboard awaiting reuse.

However, after the last experience with the magic of Oxyper I decided to wash these bottles, too.

I put about 100ml of solution in each bottle, gave them a good shake and left them for about an hour. I then shook each bottle again and tipped the solution into a container. This was the result:



Disgusting. Remember, these were bottles that had been rinsed well and showed no obvious blemishes when held up to the light.

I don't think I'll ever bottle again without washing all the bottles first.

And further to the Oxyper no-rinse conundrum, I think that given the power of Oxyper at removing stuff you can't even see you'd be silly not to rinse the bottles.

Cheers,

Oliver