Step mashing

[tazman67]

I was just wondering....
I am going to do a Dortmunder pilsner on Sat.
How many brewers just do a single temp mash for for Lagers and Pilsners, or do you do 2 step or 3 step temp infusion mash ??
What are the benefits of doing a 2 or 3 step mash ?

[warra48]

I don't brew more than one pilsner or lager a year, so can't comment on step mashing for those, although the one I did in January was a decoction mash, so that is a kind of step mash.
I don't think it is strictly necessary with our well modified malts available today, but some will say that there are benefits to step mashing, such as improved enzyme activity across the ranges, improved head retention, improved efficiency, better conversion etc. I can't vouch for any of these, as I've never done the research with side by side batches with all else being equal.

Having said that, I normally do a protein rest at 52ºC for 20 minutes for my wheat brews.

Anyone else have any better views on this issue?

[gregb]

...was a decoction mash, so that is a kind of step mash.

In the way an ultra marathon is kind of a fun run?

Cheers,
Greg

[warra48]

...was a decoction mash, so that is a kind of step mash.

In the way an ultra marathon is kind of a fun run?

Cheers,
Greg

Anything ultra is too much, and stops being fun!
Self torture and flagellation just doesn't cut it in my view.
Longest fun run I did was a few city to surfs, but other than that I limited myself to 10km max. At least that was all over in under 40 minutes, so still fun. Decoction mashing is worth it for the right brews, but not something I'd want to do too often.

[James L]

tazman,

how are you changing the water chemistry to get the high high calcium and bicarbonate levels to achieve the distinctive dormunder lager flavour? I thought about doing something similar myself because i'm a little fond of the DAB...

[gibbocore]

I know i've asked about this in the past, but i'd live to hear a definative step by step list of instructions of how to do a 2 step decoction mash using an esky mash tun. I've tried and and seriously bunged it up. But i want to do a malt juggernaught oktoberfest and wont be happy unless i do a decoction i dont think.

[James L]

Juggernaut is an awesome name for a beer.... an unstoppable detructive force.... i also like the name shithammer... but i dont know how that can refer to beer....

Anyhoo, time for a beer !!!!!

[warra48]

I know i've asked about this in the past, but i'd live to hear a definative step by step list of instructions of how to do a 2 step decoction mash using an esky mash tun. I've tried and and seriously bunged it up. But i want to do a malt juggernaught oktoberfest and wont be happy unless i do a decoction i dont think.

Decoctions are not really difficult to do, they just lengthen your brew day.
Here is a link to Palmer on how to do it.
Post back if you have any further questions. I have the print 3rd edition of Palmer's book, and it has a diagramatic description of multi rest decoctions. I could scan it for you if you wish.
The main benefit I've found is an increased maltiness to my beer I can't get from a single infusion mash. Definitely, I'd recommend it for an Oktoberfest.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter16-4.html

[tazman67]

Thanks guys.. Im going to do this....53C -25min, 66C for 60min.
Just going to KISS atm.
In regards to Dormunder water... This has been debated on other forums , they use soft water. This is supposed to come straight from the horses mouth.

Cheers

[gibbocore]

lol @shithammer, great name.

Cheers, warra, i think i'll buy the book, looks like something i could do with.

Thanks again.

[gibbocore]

found this on youtube. Well worth the watch.

Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V1zt0mW084
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5u_nJhMD4w&NR=1
Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VcZRVw2k_o&NR=1

[James L]

Sorry to hijack the thread,

The water in dortmund is very hard... it is high in calcium, sulphate and carbonate...

I got a water analysis of my local suburb, and i'm comparing it to the dortmund water using Beersmith...

It seems as though i need to add about 7g of gypsum, 10g of chalk (caco3), and 4g of epsom salt (mgso4)... (for a 26L final volume).

I'm gonna try the beer with these mineral additions to try to emulate the style... otherwise, all you are making is a lager... not a Dortmunder...

Also, how is one supposed to reduce the pH of the mash with such a high buffering due to carbonate levels? mash for longer? And finally, when you add the minerals, you add the ammount for your post boil volume?

[James L]

did it... made the dortmunder... with the mineral additions. still managed to get the 80% efficiency, but i mashed for 90 minutes instead of the usual 60 minutes... good boil, bittered with magnum, and falvoured and aromered with hallertau,,, 29IBU, 5.3%... looks good....

bought a digi thermometer too... good times...

[Trough Lolly]

G'day all,
There's an excellent photo article on a 2 step pilsner decoction...here...
Highly recommended if you want to see how it's done. I agree that a decoction is an interesting way to get more melanoidins out of your malt but if you couldn't be bothered, just add some caraaroma!

Re chemistry, Canberra water is pretty soft, so I add a teaspoon of Gypsum and a teaspoon of chalk to the mashtun when I add the strike water for my Dortmunders...But that said, I think choice of yeast is much more important to the final product...

Cheers,
TL

[rwh]

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index. ... ction_mash

[Kevnlis]

Unfortunately to do a Pilsner you must start with water which has very little calcium, carbonate,and heavy metal in it. You must also do a triple decoction and ferment at 8C for 2 weeks before lagering for upwards of 2 months.

Sounds like a pain in the ass right? But I guarantee if you do everything right it will be the best beer you have ever tasted! Hard work tastes great!

[Trough Lolly]

Unfortunately to do a Pilsner you must start with water which has very little calcium, carbonate,and heavy metal in it. You must also do a triple decoction and ferment at 8C for 2 weeks before lagering for upwards of 2 months.

Sounds like a pain in the ass right? But I guarantee if you do everything right it will be the best beer you have ever tasted! Hard work tastes great!

Kev, I know you're a pils fan and you like to make an excellent pils etc etc, but really, to say that you must do a triple decoction is w@nk...All you're doing is putting non AG brewers off from having a go at making a lager which is not hard to do - admittedly trying to clone a commercial lager beer is hard to do and you do get rewarded by using specialty grains, yeast, hops and trying out some of the more advanced brewday techniques, but to infer that water chemistry, triple decoctions and fermenting at 8C is essential is less than helpful to aspiring home brewers.

I'm sure that there are plenty of brewers who've used none of those techniques and have made perfectly acceptable lagers.

Cheers,
TL

[nath76]

Sound point TL.Thanks for looking out for the little guy.

[drsmurto]

Perfectly acceptable TL, yes. True to style, no.

Bohemian pilsners such as Budvar and Urquell are still made using a triple decoction.......

As for putting off potential HBers, the fact this is in the grain brewing section means its for the more advanced brewer.

I never made a lager as a kit brewer as i knew it wouldnt be that great, nowhere to hide the twang in a lager, a big fat stout on the other hand......

Just my 2 c
DrSMurto

[Kevnlis]

Thanks TL, I meant to say "to do it properly" I never meant it to sound like it was impossible to make a drinkable beer without using these steps. In fact with todays malts, the advances in water chemistry to treat the average tap water supply, and modern yeast strains which can be used at higher temps without giving terrible results you could probably make a beer that was near impossible to distinguish from the real thing with very little effort.