Mash PH

[OldBugman]

Ok, got a few AGs under my belt now and have been trying different ways to rise the efficiency, how ever I'm stuck around the 60% fly sparging.

I'm wondering if I should be looking into the ph level of the mash as the answer for better efficiency.

Any info or other ideas would be great before I wade into the maths of the mash.

[beerdrinker]

the pH for my 1st AG was 4.9 maybe it was only 4.9 in one spot? seems to have worked though. got a pH meter from craftbrewer ,delivered to syd next day how much better do your AGs taste compared to kk?

[Ed]

OldBugman, do you know what the SG is at last runnings from the tun? Could be you're stopping the sparge too early, that's usually the problem if you're hitting the correct mash temps, have a good grain crush, but the efficiency is lower than you'd like. When you say efficiency, are you talking into the fermenter or into the kettle?

Let's say your last runnings are coming out at 1.010 for a temp of 55C (it'll be around that temp by the time you get it in the tube and measure). Corrected that works out at 1.023 which means there's still plenty of sugar left behind. If you want to just sparge away down very low and get maximum points out, you'll need to think about acidifying the sparge water in which case you could add a pinch of citric acid to it. But be careful with acidifying, it's easy to overshoot. You'll want to adjust the sparge water to around 5.8 to 6.0, and it might just be the last 5 or so litres that need it.

Hitting exactly the correct pH range for the mash can make a small contribution to points, but it really depends on how far out the pH is in the first place. One thing about getting it right though, is it does improve the end result but again that depends if it was wrong. Water chemistry gets pretty complicated. I've only recently been able to feel at ease with it and have been playing around with salt additions since last March.

Do you have a water report?

Cheers, Ed

[Cortez The Killer]

I've been hitting somewhere in the 75-80% range batch sparging with the 2 AG I've done.

I make water adjustments to Wollongong water as calculated by promash

The Pale ale i made i used gypsum + some citric acid (I don't know why I used the citric acid - I'd read it somewhere)

And the stout I made on Sunday i used gypsum + bicarb + chalk

Note that Wollongong water is very soft. Not sure about Bondi.

Read palmers book on the issue - he gives recommended ranges for certain water components. Also get a copy of your water report from the Sydney water website.

Efficiency is also related to the type of grains / crush / mash temps / sparge temps and mash tun design - it may be worth looking at these too.

Hope this helps

Notes I wrote about the batches I did are here http://hyperfox.info/allgrain01.htm

Cheers

[OldBugman]

Well I decided to have a read thru the section in plamers and now armed with my sydney water report.

http://www.sydneywater.com.au/Publicati ... pdf#Page=1
I get it from prospect it would seem, and possibly woronora.

I'll see what I can do.

Mashed 5.5ish KG of grain with 16L of water at 155F, then sparged with 18L of sparge water, so by that time I was ending up with a fairly full boil pot. Was aiming for a 20L final volume after boil, which I got.

I basically spareged till I had run out of water. and did it over a 40minute period.

Had a preboil gravity of 1044 once I cooled it down to 20deg and a gravity of 1052-4 going into the fermenter, right on my promash calcs for an expected 60% efficency.

But I would like to be able to get similar results with a little less grain.

[Ross]

We now stock PH 5.2 link here http://craftbrewer.com.au/index.php?pag ... &Itemid=29

Never worry about Ph again! One tablespoon of 5.2 per 23L batch and your water is instantly adjusted to the perfect ph of 5.2, no matter what your starting ph was. It will not add any flavors to your mash water whatsoever. 5.2 optimizes the enzymatic activity of your malt, helps to clarify the wort, and may even help to raise your starting gravities. Also, using 5.2 in the boil will give you more consistent hop usage, and will also keep hard water salts in solution, which will result in less scaling in your heat exchangers, fermenters, and kegs. If you are doing all-grain you add it to your mash water - 1 tblsp per 23L batch regardless of mash water volume. You do not need to add any extra to your Hot-Liqour tank or Boil Kettle.

cheers

Ross
CraftBrewer

[Chris]

Is it some sort of buffer, Ross?

[drsmurto]

a pH of 5.2 suggests its a sodium acetate buffer.........

[Ross]

Is it some sort of buffer, Ross?

Yes it is Chris... don't ask me the exact science though... as all I know, is it works

Cheers Ross

[lethaldog]

Maybe melbourne water is really that great as ive done 4 AG's now and have hit 80% with 3 and 75% with the other, if its not the reason then dont ask me how cos im a complete novice when it comes to AG brewing

[OldBugman]

I might try fitting a false bottom above my manifold for the next one, maybe thats where the efficiency lies.

Overall I'm quite happy with how it's been going though, besides my first one which I didn't use as much grain due to expecting better efficiency.

[Ed]

Well I decided to have a read thru the section in plamers and now armed with my sydney water report.

http://www.sydneywater.com.au/Publicati ... pdf#Page=1
I get it from prospect it would seem, and possibly woronora.

I'll see what I can do.

Mashed 5.5ish KG of grain with 16L of water at 155F, then sparged with 18L of sparge water, so by that time I was ending up with a fairly full boil pot. Was aiming for a 20L final volume after boil, which I got.

I basically spareged till I had run out of water. and did it over a 40minute period.

Had a preboil gravity of 1044 once I cooled it down to 20deg and a gravity of 1052-4 going into the fermenter, right on my promash calcs for an expected 60% efficency.

But I would like to be able to get similar results with a little less grain.

Try mashing at a lower ratio because you might just find you'll get better rinsing of the grain. Try around 2.3 to 2.5. That might allow for more effective extraction and is about what I was using for fly sparging (which I'll eventually go back to if I can be bothered getting a new tun).

Looks like your water would give a small positive pH shift in the mash. 1/2 to 3/4 of a teaspoon of gypsum into your mash would bring the pH level into about the right range for making light coloured beers, and your water could use the extra calcium anyway. I have to go the other way and add chalk and even some baking soda if using darker malts. If it was me with your water, I'd also be looking at a small addition of citric acid into the sparge water towards the end, but if you're not going down too low then you might not have to bother. It would be a case of measuring to find out.

But don't look to pH for raising the efficiency much, plus your water looks like it should be OK for brewing without having to bother about salt additions just yet. If you do decide to play around, just go easy with the additions and measure the effect. I buggered up a couple by getting carried away

I'm sure that with slight changes in technique you should be able to get away with less grain. Start with a lower ratio and less grain, see how it goes. Do you think the grain crushed well enough? Oh, and do you stir the mash a few times during the hour?

Cheers, Ed

[OldBugman]

Yeah Stirred it a few times. Even trialled mashing for longer, 90mins instead of 60.

a lower water/grain ratio is something I may trial as well.


The grain was cracked by a very reputable brewer/seller of home brew stuff.

[chris.]

Is it some sort of buffer, Ross?

Yes it is Chris... don't ask me the exact science though... as all I know, is it works

Cheers Ross

I've used 5.2 around 5-10 times. I hit 5.2 on most occasions. The only gripe I have with it is that I found it affects the hot break formation in the kettle.

I gave up using it & prefer the method that Ed has mentioned of adding calcium (either Gypsum or CaCl) to the mash & acidifying my sparge water.

BTW my effiency went up after buying a bigger sturdier spoon. A good stir works a treat

[Ross]

I've used 5.2 around 5-10 times. I hit 5.2 on most occasions. The only gripe I have with it is that I found it affects the hot break formation in the kettle.
.

In what way Chris, I'm entrigued? Hot break formation is something one rarely sees anyway? Please enlighten...

cheers Ross

[OldBugman]

BTW my effiency went up after buying a bigger sturdier spoon. A good stir works a treat

This is something I want to look at, using a coper manifold I feel I may not be stirring the grains which sit within the frame work of the manifold. Definitely something which I feel would improve with a false bottom. Also I wonder about the filtration of the grains and how much grain isn't getting rinsed properly down at the bottom of my tun.


Currently I only have slots cut along the top of the manifold, should I have slots on both the top and bottom or should I try flipping it over and having the slots on the bottom to promote rinsing of the lower(full) grain bed.

[chris.]

Hot break formation is something one rarely sees anyway?

I do most of the time on my system. I get clumps forming similar to the egg particles in an egg drop soup. I found when using the 5.2 I didn't get the clumping & would get smaller, dust like, particles. To the point where the wort just looked hazy & not as clear as "non 5.2" worts.
Probably not a big deal. But when I heard Palmer describe the 5.2 as a "band aid" I figured it was time to look at other factors contributing to mash pH like my water hardness & residual alkalinity etc.

[chris.]

BTW my effiency went up after buying a bigger sturdier spoon. A good stir works a treat

This is something I want to look at, using a coper manifold I feel I may not be stirring the grains which sit within the frame work of the manifold. Definitely something which I feel would improve with a false bottom. Also I wonder about the filtration of the grains and how much grain isn't getting rinsed properly down at the bottom of my tun.

I have never used a manifold. I use a false bottom. & on bad days my effiency still slips down to 60-65%. I believe that it's not so much an issue of how you drain but instead making sure your getting the sugar out of the grain & into solution before draining.

FWIW I'm considering switching from the false bottom to an SS braid. I find the holes in the FB a little too big & I have to recirculate the first runnings for a longer time than I'd like.

[Ed]

I see the hot break too, probably because I run what I'd term a gentle boil. It sits and clumps together on the surface and has a greyish oil slick look. I can imagine it could be difficult to pick up if the wort surface is being broken by an agressive boil.

OldBugman, I have my manifold slots facing up and get great efficiency. Even better when I was fly sparging in another tun. What's your grain bed depth and it's relation to the tun width?

Cheers, Ed

[OldBugman]

it's slightly higher than it is wide.

6 inches maybe.