Whirlpooling and cold break!!

[lethaldog]

Hey guys i was wondering if someone could give me an in depth description of whirlpooling cos i have tried what i would think it would be and i still end up with the same amount of crud in the fermenter, i did my 2nd AG today and this is when i tried this out and obviously i didnt get it right..

Also what is the harm in all this ending up in the fermenter anyway as i have heard mixed reports, my AG pilsner that i did a couple of weeks ago ( my first) ended up with all the crap in it and just today it has been racked into my lagering container after being racked once before and it looked fantastic, as clear as i woould expect at this stage with any other brew i have done in the past, so i guess my second question is, is it worth trying to get all of the trub out or is this just something ppl do as a precaution??

[gregb]

Lethal,

I've cut'n'pasted this from Palmer. We've enough links there...

"Whirlpooling is a means of gathering most of the break and hops into the center of the pot to better enable the siphon to draw off clear wort from the side. Rapidly stir the wort in a circular manner. Continue stirring until all the liquid is moving and a whirlpool forms. Stop stirring and let the whirlpool slow down and settle for 10 minutes or so. The whirlpooling action will form a pile in the center of the pot, leaving the edge relatively clear."

"It is a good idea to remove the hot break (or the break in general) from the wort before fermenting. The hot break consists of various proteins and fatty acids which can cause off-flavors, although a moderate amount of hot break can go unnoticed in most beers. The cold break is not considered to be much of a problem, in fact a small amount of cold break in the fermenter is good because it can provide the yeast with needed nutrients. The hops do not matter at all except that they take up room.

In general however, removal of most of the break, either by careful pouring from the pot or by racking to another fermenter, is necessary to achieve the cleanest tasting beer. If you are trying to make a very pale beer such as Pilsener style lager, the removal of most of the hot and cold break can make a significant difference.

Cheers,
Greg

[gregb]

One other thing.

The only problem that I have noted from too much junk making it from pot to fermenter was when the tap got clogged with hops and stopped running and I had to rig up a siphon etc.

Cheers,
Greg

[lethaldog]

Cheers mate, i havent had the tap clog "yet" but the 2 i have done have had alot in the bottom of the primary, cant say about off flavours yet but out of the fermenter she tastes great ( the pilsner not the one i did today ) im sure ill get it better with practise so ill just have to keep trying...

Thanks for the info greg

[chris.]

Lethaldog, I'm not 100% sure if it's fact or just me but I suspect that the hot break that makes it into the fermentor can lead to clarity issues in the finished product. Like I said I could be totally wrong & this is just something I've noticed in my experience. As greg has pointed out I don't believe cold break to be that much of an issue. It's the hot break that I concern myself with.

IMO whirlpooling is useless your draining from the bottom corner of your pot (either by a pickup tube connected to a spigot, or siphoning) What sort of setup are you using?

[lethaldog]

At the moment im using a 40 litre aluminium kettle for the boil and am seriously considering a tap but at the moment just syphoning with a hose, what would be other ways to get rid of the break?

[chris.]

At the moment im using a 40 litre aluminium kettle for the boil and am seriously considering a tap but at the moment just syphoning with a hose, what would be other ways to get rid of the break?

No chill method?

After the boil, whirpool & leave it to sit for 10 or so minutes to settle out (don't move the kettle after this point until its empty), when you siphon do it from the side of the kettle. Before installing my tap I used 12mm heat resistant silicon hose which I'd have as hard up to the side of the kettle as I could get it. The purpose of the whirlpool is to pull the break & hop debris into the centre of the kettle so you can get a clear run off from the side/edge.

BTW. I've only just installed a tap in my kettle. So far I've only done 2 batches, & I'm yet to tweak my pick up tube positioning for optimal performance, but FWIW if you have the siphoning process down it can be just as effective as using a tap IMO.

[lethaldog]

At the moment im using a 40 litre aluminium kettle for the boil and am seriously considering a tap but at the moment just syphoning with a hose, what would be other ways to get rid of the break?

No chill method?

After the boil, whirpool & leave it to sit for 10 or so minutes to settle out (don't move the kettle after this point until its empty), when you siphon do it from the side of the kettle. Before installing my tap I used 12mm heat resistant silicon hose which I'd have as hard up to the side of the kettle as I could get it. The purpose of the whirlpool is to pull the break & hop debris into the centre of the kettle so you can get a clear run off from the side/edge.

Sorry mate, i use a copper immersion chiller that i made out of about 13-14metres of copper, takes me about 20 mins to cool 23-24 litres, i think ill have to go for a tap, it seems the only way to be sure as i seem to be stirring up the break again when i put my syphon hose in, maybe im just a little to heavy handed or something

[chris.]

I can imagine it would be hard to get a decent whirpool going with an immersion chiller in the way too?

[lethaldog]

I can imagine it would be hard to get a decent whirpool going with an immersion chiller in the way too?

I take it out before i whirlpool
Your not havin a go at me are you chris

This is my AG method:

Mash in a 20 litre round willow esky with copper manifold!
flysparge!
boil adding hops at intervals!
add chiller for the last 10 mins of boil!
when done, chill!
Take out chiller and whirlpool!
Put lid back on pot and go inside to steralise fermenter and syphon hose!
Syphon!
add Yeast!

[chris.]

Nah I'm not having a go Lethal Infact I've never used a CFWC
I just assumed (& believe heard somewhere but cannot recall at the moment) that it would be better option to chill whilst whirpooling?

[Ed]

Leigh, my method is very similar to yours except I've now switched to batch sparging (long story and is of no consequence to this anyway).

After the chill, I get a whirlpool going but like chris I don't really see there's that much point. I find it does bugger all but I still do it. The idea is to get it moving as fast as possible to form a cone on settling but I really don't see much of that at all. What I do find of benefit is to let it sit for about 20 mins to 1/2 hr after the chill. This leaves me with around 2 litres of unusable rubbish that I don't put into the fermenter.

I stuck a small 3" pice of 1/2" copper pipe on the end of the syphon hose. That allows the very end of the hose to make it's way right down to the bottom of the pot. I then just gently feed the rest of the pipe in and allow it to coil around until it's all full of wort. At this point, I stick my thumb over the end and draw the pipe out and down, release my thumb and the syphon begins. It only draws a little rubbish in the first instance and then draws clean wort. When the level in the pot begins to drop down to the last couple of litres, it will again start drawing the break material. This is when you stop the syphon.

You can either chuck the couple of litres left over or pour it into a large glass bottle for further settling. When settled, pour of the good wort back into the fermenter or use it for a starter.

Bear in mind that those using counter flow chillers dump heaps of crap into their fermenters anyway. I don't rack and also like to re-use the yeast so that's why I don't want the rubbish making it's way in there.

I'm actually thinking of getting a pump instead of siphoning. I just can't bring myself to drilling into the side of a nice pot If you go the tap route, you can fit a slotted circular manifold inside the pot which helps keep some rubbish out.

Cheers, Ed

[yardglass]

If you go the tap route, you can fit a slotted circular manifold inside the pot which helps keep some rubbish out.

Cheers, Ed

Hey Edjy,

I don't seem to get that much break material in the primary but the mani is a good idea.
Would you have the slots on that facing up or down or once made, drill a series of holes around the outer radius ?

Cheers

[chris.]

I stuck a small 3" pice of 1/2" copper pipe on the end of the syphon hose. That allows the very end of the hose to make it's way right down to the bottom of the pot. I then just gently feed the rest of the pipe in and allow it to coil around until it's all full of wort. At this point, I stick my thumb over the end and draw the pipe out and down, release my thumb and the syphon begins. It only draws a little rubbish in the first instance and then draws clean wort. When the level in the pot begins to drop down to the last couple of litres, it will again start drawing the break material. This is when you stop the syphon.

After reading up a little it seems that getting good results from whirlpooling when using a CFWC can be a little tricky (unless your Jamil http://www.mrmalty.com/chiller.php )

Ed, I tried the method you use once & f--ked it up royally Yes I'm talented
For my prefered method of siphoning I settled on filling the hose with filtered water, putting my thumb over one end, dipping the other end into the wort then taking my thumb off the end.

[rwh]

I've tried whirlpooling after cooling with my immersion chiller, and then syphoning, but I find the flow from a single spot down the bottom pulls a fair bit of break material from the centre anyway. You're never going to be able to exclude all of it.

The syphon I have is good, my dad gave it to me. It's flexible pvc pipe, with some rigid pipe in the end, with a cap over the end. Then about 2.5 cm from the cap there are two small holes in the side of the rigid pipe. This means that you can position the end of the siphon against the side of the pot easily, and you're always drawing liquid from a bit above the bottom.

[BierMeister]

Good thread. I'm about to upgrade my pot to an old beer keg my dad has had in his shed for millenia when I get the time so no more boiling two batches with my 19L pot. My method so far has been to do everything as per normal except that I would have to boil and chill twice and i would pour from the pot to fermentor after whirl pooling. I would always end up with a little trub getting to the fermentor but not that much. My cooling method is still to be desired as I cool the pot in my laundry sink, but with in 30 to 40 mins so not to much chill haze. The second batch being easier as I have moved to hopping the first but not the second to lose less brew.

My HBS owner also has an old keg as his kettle but has a tap installed and uses a short length of stainless steel hose mesh to filter his wort and a counterflow chiller. This would leave him with all of the cold break, but little of the hot break in his fermentor. Opinions please as I am now considering using a syphon and immersion chiller after reading this thread. Would save on paying a stainless steel welder to put in a tap too.

[Ed]

I like the immersion chiller but that's because I have one and I like to leave as much break material behind as I can. It's a difficult question really becasue those with CFC's like them too. And what some consider bad practice may not be so. Cold break is positive for yeast early in the ferment but not desirable later, and some dump just about everything in through CFC's and still get great beer.

Confused? Me too

I'm happy with the immersion and will keep siphoning for now. But originally I agonised over which way to go.

Cheers, Ed

[lethaldog]

About to go through with installing a tap to my pot so this is either going to be great or it will be a very expensive procedure( new pot may be necassary) but im pretty confident, hopefully this will help, but in saying that im already pretty happy with the way the pilsner is looking, its in lagering now but i had a taste when i racked and it was awesome and pretty bloody clear to considering it was my first and it did have most of the shit from the kettle in it, in saying that it would still be nice to get rid of some of it though, hence the tap

[Ed]

I'm looking at getting a cheap pump instead of going the drilling. Was meant to do it during the week but got lazy

Hey Leigh, run off a stubby and let it carb when you rack. You can get a taste of what's to come

Cheers, Ed

[lethaldog]

I'm looking at getting a cheap pump instead of going the drilling. Was meant to do it during the week but got lazy

Hey Leigh, run off a stubby and let it carb when you rack. You can get a taste of what's to come

Cheers, Ed

Will do next time, Im seriously considering a keg setup at the moment so if i go ahead with that then it shouldnt be to long before i get to taste it anyway