Mash schedules

[gregb]

Question for the AG Brewers:

Most of the literature that I have read gives mash schedules as 40-60-70 degrees C. Will it still work if I run it 70-60-40? Anyone know? Anyone tried it? Anyone prepared to guess?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Cheers,
Greg

[Merlin]

I've only got as far as partial mashes, but I'll have a stab at it. From my research on the subject, the 40-60-70 schedule is the temperatures for the protein rest (which doesn't appear to be always necessary), mash, and the mash-out (although 60 and 70 are a bit on the low side for either, but working in nice round numbers is easier so we'll stick with it). According to the guru on the Grain & Grape site, the first 5-10 minutes of the mash is when the correct temparature is the most critical, so by reversing the schedule you would be starting your mash at 70 deg. Normally a 70 deg mash will give you a highly dextrinous (spelling?) beer, ie, you will end up with a higher final gravity reading than if you had mashed at, say, 64 deg. But, following the reverse schedule, if you started at 70 then let the mash drop to 60 then 40 deg, you would still end up with a high final gravity from the high initial temperature but due to the crap efficiency you would get by letting the mash drop below 60 deg, you wouldn't get a very high starting gravity. So my guess as to the outcome of a 70-60-40 mash schedule is that you will end up with a very low alcohol, very sweet beer. Does this sound logical to anyone else, or have I missed the boat completely?

Cheers

Merlin

[grabman]

From my limited understanding the schedule comes into play if you are doing complex mashes, as Palmer says in the link below for most types of beer a simple mash is good enough. The idea is to try to maintain temp with a simple while with a complex schedule you adjust temp to obtain different characters from the grain etc.

As I said I'm no expert, only got 2 AG's under my belt so far, I use a single step mash not a multi-step. My Mash tun seems fairly good at keeping temp, I dropped 4C over the hour on last brew.

But look here for more details:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter16.html

Grab

[db]

i dont think it would work as well doing the steps backwards. the reason for the lower start is to allow the alpha amylase to breakdown the larger starches/proteins into smaller portions for the beta amylase to go to work on when the temp is raised.. & i think starting at 70, & leaving it that high for extended periods, would be too high & you'd be likely to end up extracting tannins..
as Grab has pointed out the multistep mash isn't really necessary. i only ever use single infusion mashes.. generally around 65-66

[Dogger Dan]

No, It won't work

You are denaturing proteins at the higher temps that are required at the lower temps

Besides it easier to add heat rather than take it away

Dogger

[gregb]

Thanks guys, my slack arse plan was to start it at just over 70, and let it cool over 60 to 90 minutes, rather than hold it at a temp, then raise it up, hold it etc.

Cheers,
Greg

[grabman]

greg if your mash tun is insulated there's no reason that won't work, that would make it a single step mash!

Warm the tun while it's empty, leave hot water in while you mill the grain, then empty place half water in the tun add grain and stir toi dough it in then add rest of water. PLace lid on and leave, check every 15-20 min to make sure temp doesn't drop too much. Id it does add a bit more hot water and give a gentle stir. Stirring will also help avoid cold pockets in the grain.

Grabman

[Dogger Dan]

As things would be, this kind of happened to me by accident over the weekend. I was stuck on the phone watching the temp drop. The grains were so gummy by the end I had two stuck sparges of which, until Saturday I had only every had one and I had to work on that to see what it was and what to do incase I ever had another.

I do not hold in the wisdom of starting hot and dropping the temp. for the reason that the proteins you are looking for at lower temps are already denatured by the higher temps and yes, stuck sparges

Dogger

[thehipone]

With the exception of beers with a lot of adjuncts you will be fine with a single infusion in the 60's followed by a mash out. The protein rest isnt really needed for simple grain bills.

[Dogger Dan]

At the risk of sounding simple.....which may not be far from the mark, you guys are working in Celcius right, and here I was thinking Farenheit cause thats what I use.


So here I was trying to get my head wrapped around the temp profiles and ......... never mind. Must have had a blonde moment

If you are starting at say 152 deg F to convert the starches to sugars and you are using a well modified grain, you don't need the protein rests

thanks for clearing me up on that hipone

Stupid Dogger, just plain stupid

[grabman]

aah the blonde moment!

natures excuse for everything stupid, just look at Paris Hilton!

yes Dogger we work in metric down here, metres, kilograms, litres etc

REal world measures

Says Grabman having a grey moment!

[Dogger Dan]

Not Dogger Measurements though

Dogger

[yardglass]

first Partial today,
just a question for the mashers, how's this look ?

3kg Light Lager Malt
0.5kg Crystal
0.3kg Carapils
0.3kg Wheat
0.5kg Honey
1.5kg Pale LME
30gm Tettnanger 60min
12gm Cascade 15min
12gm Cascade 0min

1. Heat 8lt water to strike of 70*/75* C.
2.Pre Heat Esky with hot water.
3. Add half strike water to esky, add grains, dough in and add rest of water.
4.Mash @ 67*C for 60-90 min.
5.Heat another 8lt water.
6.Strain wort into pot.
7.Batch sparge by adding 8lt of 70*C water, stir, mash for 10min and strain into pot.
8.Aim for a boil volume of ???? litres ?
9.Bring to boil, off heat and add Extract. Stir.
10. Boil for 60min.
11. Hops. see above.
12. Irish Moss. When ??????. How Much ??????.
13. Flame Out.
14. Chill wort in sink of ice water.
15. Top up to 22lt with chilled / filtered water.
16. Pitch 23gm W34/70.

not sure on how much water the grain will absorb, so also no idea of boil volume after sparge.

Irish Moss, 2tsp in the last 10min sound about right ?

one more , does it look too sweet with the crystal and honey ?

thanks in advance for any advice.
cheers
yard

[grabman]

looks good to me yardie

and yes you're right with the irish moss, 2stp in last 10 min of boil

I'd say you boil volume will be around 10-12 litres given you used 16L all up in mash and sparge, just a rough estimate though, I could be wrong.

have fun

Grabman

[yardglass]

grab,
cheers mate.

hardest part is abstaining from a HB until the end.

big day here, NYE, First Partial and my son's birthday.

will deserve a coldy sarvo

cheers
yardy

[gregb]

Yardie,

Looks good. What OG did you end up with?

BTW I've become a devotee of the single step infusion.

Cheers,
Greg.

[yardglass]

gregb,
what a day....

the OG at pitching was 1.064.

i stirred, and checked this twice.

does this seem high ?

the only alteration to the original recipe was 0.3kg of Dextrose.

anyone got a Alc % for this ?

shit, what a day, don't pick NYE and your boy's birthday for a first anything...

1000 beers, here i come......


A PROSPEROUS, HEALTHY AND ABOVE ALL, HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL.



yardglass.

[gregb]

1064 seems fine, looks like you've got a good mash efficiency there.

Assuming a FG of 1010 you'd be looking at an alc% of 7 - 7.5.

Enjoy, Cheers, and Happy New Year to all,
Greg

[yardglass]

1064 seems fine, looks like you've got a good mash efficiency there.

Assuming a FG of 1010 you'd be looking at an alc% of 7 - 7.5.

Enjoy, Cheers, and Happy New Year to all,
Greg

Greg,
thanks, for some obscure reason i was expecting the OG to be low, real low...

that's a pretty heavy beer, i hope the big alc% doesn't mess with the head retention.

is there any math for working out my efficiency here ?

yardy

[gregb]

See Palmer. http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-5.html

Cheers,
Greg