Sparging?

[Kevnlis]

Does fly sparging have a superior second runnings? Batch sparging seems so much easier,im wondering why a lot of brewers use this method? cheers!

Fly sparging gives you a better efficiency (rinses the grain better).

[rwh]

Fly sparging, by definition, doesn't have second runnings, the lot drains out in one go. The advantages of fly sparging IIRC are a reduction in oxidation and a (very slight) increase in efficiency. I batch sparge.

[drsmurto]

i have read the increase in eff is only a few points. I batch sparge. Sometimes i split the sparge into 2 as i reckon that will rinse better but thats only when i am not being lazy. Fly sparging requires you to watch it the whole time, batch lets me walk away. Hence, i batch!

[Cortez The Killer]

Batch sparging is the way to go

Easier, quicker - and fairly decent efficiencies

For the cost of a little extra malt - I don't see the benefit of fly sparging - unless of course you have the time / passion

I mash in at 3x - drain the tun quickly - then dump in all my sparge water - stir - sit for 5 mins - recirc and drain

Easy!

Efficiencies can be improved by adjusting the crush and playing with water chemistry - all other things being equal

Cheers

[Trough Lolly]

Fly sparging gives you a better efficiency (rinses the grain better).

OMG! This very comment has triggered WW III on a number of overseas forums, so I suppose it's only a matter of time before it reared it's ugly head in this forum...

Whilst one method may appear to yield greater efficiency than another - and that can be debated if you have limitless patience when it comes to the sparge - the important point that we need to remember is that good efficiency does not guarantee a good beer. Let me explain.

One of the very best English Bitters that I ever drank was as a humble steward at the Nationals a few years ago, and it was from a batch that was made without a sparge. There is a bit of folklore flying around that suggests that Crown Lager is the first runnings from the multi storey mashtun and VB is made from the second runnings. Now, whether this is true or not, the important point is that many brewers (including the pro brewers) agree that you won't necessarily have an excellent beer if you sparge the bejaysus out of the mash.

So whilst we can debate the pros and cons of batch versus fly sparging, we need to more importantly focus on when we should stop sparging to ensure that we have a well made wort...

Cheers,
TL

[beerdrinker]

Does anyone use Ph5.2 from craftbrewer? i have some to use in my next batch,im trying to minimise Ph related tannin extraction.

[Kevnlis]

I never said it yielded a better beer, just a higher gravity. I guess using the word "better" in front of efficiency was misinterpreted here. What I meant to say was that it will make the sparge more efficient at washing the fermentables from the grain in most cases

[Trough Lolly]

Fair enough - and without wanting to get too pedantic, I would suggest that fly sparging is a more effective method but batch sparging is a more efficient process during the brewday...

Cheers,
TL

[Tipsy]

Fair enough - and without wanting to get too pedantic, I would suggest that fly sparging is a more effective method but batch sparging is a more efficient process during the brewday...

Cheers,
TL

And where would BIAB come into the equation

[Kevnlis]

Fair enough - and without wanting to get too pedantic, I would suggest that fly sparging is a more effective method but batch sparging is a more efficient process during the brewday...

Cheers,
TL

And where would BIAB come into the equation

BIAB has a special "dunk sparge" method which I have found to work with similar results to batch sparge.

[Tipsy]

Fair enough - and without wanting to get too pedantic, I would suggest that fly sparging is a more effective method but batch sparging is a more efficient process during the brewday...

Cheers,
TL

And where would BIAB come into the equation

BIAB has a special "dunk sparge" method which I have found to work with similar results to batch sparge.

Yeah I know.
Was just stiring the pot

[James L]

Sorry to bring up this subject again, but i was trying to decide how i am going to sparge my beer when i start doing Ag... the only two things i have left to get are the esky, and the HLT.

I was wondering, if you need a grain bed thickness between 10 -20cm, is a 55L or a 36L the best go for a normal grain bill of about 4.5-5kg?

Also, i was thinking about doing fly sparging, but buying one of those march pumps so i can automate the recirculation. I was hoping to control the temp of the HLT water to about 73C, and slowly recirculate that water through the mash tun at 1L/minute, back to the HLT, so at the end, the sparge water in the HLT will be effectively wort. Then, I will stop the flow of wort back to the HLT, and send it to the boiling kettle instead, the remained of the water from the HLT will trickle through the grain bed and get pumped to the kettle, so all the wort ends up from the HLT, through the mash tun and into the kettle. Does that make sense?(I'd draw a pic, but i dont know how to get it on the forum).

therefore if you can do this, you'd be able to put a small manifold on the recirculating water from the HLT to spread out the recirculating water to ensure you get uniform flow through the grain bed.

If you automate the recirculation, you can go away and leave it and not have to worry about watching it, and the water flowing through the HLT will maintain the same temp, so you dont have to worry about temp loss. You could even slowly increase the set temp of the HLT so you can mash out whilst recirulating....

Whilst the kettle is boiling the wort, you'd be able to sterilise the pump but running steriliser thorough it, and then you'd be able to use the pump to help pump the wort through the chiller and into the fermenter.

These are just ideas, but i would like some imput. I know there is a little bit of extra money involved, but i'm more worried about getting the process right.

Cheers

James

[drsmurto]

The recirculating sparge water thru the HLT is basically the same concept as Beerbellys Brewboy which is a 2 vessel system.

Maybe call Wayne and see what his thoughts are on this? He is the only one i know of doing this.

FWIW - i have a 55L willow esky and usually only have about 4kg of grain per 20L batch. I reckon my grain bed height is 10cm at most. Got 76% efficiency yesterday after increasing temp of mash out and sparge water (cheers for that tip Kev ).

My only other bit of advice James is dont overthink this. I spent 6 months researching AG before getting all the equipment together. As a research scientist its what i do. It all went out of the window on first AG day when you really just have to go with the flow and adjust on the fly.

Cheers
DrSmurto

p.s. re first AG, no matter how tempting, do not stick your hand in the mash to reconnect the false bottom you forgot to tighten. 66C is too hot even for a few seconds!

[James L]

haha... yeh i'll remember that...

Being a scientist, i like to put a fair bit of thought into what i'm doing too...

I think for starters, i could use my brew kettle as a HLT by using an immerision heater to heat the water, then remove when it comes to boiling the wort. I can still fly sparge, and control the temp of the HLT water by using a temp controller.

When i get some more money, i might invest in a separate HLT.

Still need to get that Esky too..

Cheers for the help

[warra48]

I think for starters, i could use my brew kettle as a HLT by using an immerision heater to heat the water, then remove when it comes to boiling the wort. I can still fly sparge, and control the temp of the HLT water by using a temp controller.

When i get some more money, i might invest in a separate HLT.

Cheers for the help

That's all well and good for your initial mash water. But what will you do when you have to drain your initial mash, i.e. what will you drain it into, and then have the sparge water heated to the appropriate temperature? You can't use your kettle to do two things at once is what I'm getting at.

It's OK to use your brew kettle as a HLT, until it is time to do your first run off. Maybe you will do your first run off into another fermenter or cube? Eventually you'll have to get all your wort into your kettle to do your boil. Ultimately, the best idea is to get a separate pot as your HLT, IMHO.

[James L]

whats to stop you from just recirculating the water in the kettle/hlt through the mash tun... why does it have to be separate?

My plan was to slowly drain the mash tun and pump it to the kettle, at the same time start rinsing the grain in the tun with sparge water that is from the kettle... I was then going to let it recirculate for about 20-30 minutes so the liquid in both it pretty much the same conc of sugars, then stop the recirculation to the mash tun, and pump the rest of the water out of the mash tun to eventually fill the kettle. Then boil with hops etc.

This means that i can control or change the temp of the water going into the mash tun while its recirculating. slowly raise it to 77 so it mashes out. Also i can make a manifold to sit on the grain bed so the recirculating water can be spread evenly through the grain as it is rinsing.

[James L]

warra,

With me not knowing much about AG, I should take everyones ideas on board. I reckon I was a little too quick to disagree with you. I will be buying a 20L pot so i can try both methods (batch and fly) and see which one is best for me.

Cheers for your help

James

[warra48]

James,
Just trying to help, no offence taken.
I batch sparge, and took that as my approach. I use a 19 litre pot as my HLT, and a 40 litre alu pot for my kettle.
I guess there is nothing to stop you recirculating your wort and to use that as your sparging liquid. My guess is that you will possibly end up leaving quite a bit of the sugars behind, as it seems to me you are rinsing them with wort already rich in sugars, even though it is diluted by the volume of your sparge water..
I guess it's a bit like trying to clean your breakfast wheatie bowl by rinsing it with more milk.
However, I don't claim to be an expert, and your method may well work. It's possible I may have missed something in your process.
Have a good one.

[James L]

I called the guy that is sorting the equipment out for me, and he said that there are a few things that i should be aware of if i'm going to recirculate the mash water...

Firstly, i need to workout exactly now much water i need, cos once i start recirculating, i cant remove any water only wort if the volume is too large.

Second, The efficiency is about 65-75% because as you say you are rinsing sugar from the grain with sugary water. its especially harder with higher gravity beers. He did recommend to do a final rinse of hot plain water to extract the remainder of the sugars in the grain.

thirdly, its a little too easy to set and forget the pump things can go awry.. he said that for people just starting out with AG its better to do it manually so you get a feel of whats going on so you dont compact the grain bed or you dont flood the mash tun.

And finally it costs less money to do it batch sparge rather than fly sparge (a march pump is about 260 bucks). a 20L pot is about 30 bucks.

[Ed]

James, I fly sparge and use no pump to do it, just relying on gravity to feed it all through. With a tap on the hot tank and mash tun, it's easy to set the flow rate after just a couple of minutes and you can even walk away and mess about doing something else while it's going (I usually check it every so often while I clean up or get the hops ready). As far as taking extra time to fly sparge, well for me it no longer does as I turn the burner on after collecting just a couple of litres. So by the time the sparge is over, the volume is at or near boil with break material being formed. When you batch sparge, you still need to wait for the kettle to come to boil which for me is the same time for the entire fly sparge. I spent good money on the boil pot, but the pot sitting on the top shelf was only something like $40.00 from Kong Trading in Vic Park.

Cheers, Ed