Mash PH

[rwh]

should i add salts for light beers?

In general, you don't add salts for light beers - soft water is what you need.

[beerdrinker]

Cheers mate, should i add salts to the rainwater? was assuming it was free of most salts?

[Trough Lolly]

....nah, not a scientist, just curious about the brewing process...

The fluctuations that you've got with your measurements suggest that your water needs extra buffering - If you're keen on adding salts, I'd go for the bicarb of soda or calcium carbonate to see if you can keep the pH fairly constant throughout the mash. As I touched on earlier, making adjustments to your water's profile with brewing salts is an optional technique - you don't have to do it but if you're keen on managing the pH and you want to emulate the water that your favourite beer's made with, then by all means, tweak away.

Edit: And as rwh points out, soft water is excellent for pale beers - our water here in Canberra is ideal for APA's and light coloured lagers. For those of us with soft water, we can adjust the relatively blank canvas with some ease - spare a thought for those who use water that's laden with heaps of ions (eg Munich or Dublin with their high bicarbonate levels) that can do all sorts of things to the beer - hence the widespread use of bottled water.

Cheers,
TL

[beerdrinker]

Just want to get rid of the damn grain bitterness then keep tweaking till ive got german quality beer

[Trough Lolly]

Fair enough...and the tannins are readily extracted from grains when you use acidic water. Don't forget to treat your sparge water as well as the water you use in the mash.

Cheers,
TL

[Ed]

Fair enough...and the tannins are readily extracted from grains when you use acidic water. Don't forget to treat your sparge water as well as the water you use in the mash.

Cheers,
TL

Isn't it the case that higher pH values favour the extraction of tannins and that levels below pH 5.8 are best?

Cheers, Ed

[lethaldog]

Well Well hes resurfaced, long time no see Ed and welcome back

[Trough Lolly]

Fair enough...and the tannins are readily extracted from grains when you use acidic water. Don't forget to treat your sparge water as well as the water you use in the mash.

Cheers,
TL

Isn't it the case that higher pH values favour the extraction of tannins and that levels below pH 5.8 are best?

Cheers, Ed

G'day Ed - thanks for the reality check! You're quite right - what I wrote at 12:49am was rubbish! The theory generally accepted is that as we continue a sparge, the pH of the extracted sweet liquor will gradually rise over time, which increases solubility of the tannins in the mash and hence, greater tannin extraction as the sparge continues. The reason why I say "generally accepted" is due to recent studies in the US (Cornell Uni) that suggest that whilst tannins happily bind with proteins and starches (it's the principle behind leather tanning), there comes a point when the pH is high enough to act as a buffer against the tannins, by denying them the ability to bond to the available hydrogen present in the proteins...But I doubt we're going to be working with pH's of 8 and higher!!
Looking back at beerdrinker's post, I most likely got grain bitterness confused with acidity levels in the wort.

Anyway thanks again for the reality check!

Cheers,
TL

[Ed]

Ta Leigh

TL hope it didn't look like I was being difficult and I knew you would know, just didn't want a wrong impression to remain for others.

I brew with water that's very low in Calcium 2.7, bicarbonate 4.3, and Magnesium 4.8. Have previously experienced situations of a falling mash pH probably because of low buffering. Managed to solve it through careful additions of chalk or baking soda to raise, and Gypsum to lower. Ran into the problem of the added calcium being noticed in my Pilsners (even though it was just 1/4 teaspoon), so now am adding a little darker malt to bring the colour up just a tad. Still use salts in darker styles though, just carefully

As you do, I think what beerdrinker picked up may have been caused from acidity. In my case I noticed that a low mash pH wouldn't allow the yeast and maybe other compounds to flocculate, there was a tart flavour present, and hop flavour and aroma barely present.

Cheers, Ed

[Trough Lolly]

No offence taken at all Ed....I should have known better than to waffle on at that time of the evening after so many robust porters!! Besides, I was wrong and the correction was needed.

As you wrote, the trick to making adjustments is to do it carefully and to avoid oversteering the ions and pH of the water in question. Pale lagers such as pils and dortmunders really do show up the added salts if you even slightly overdo it - a high alcohol, estery and well hopped IPA is very forgiving in that regard!!

Cheers,
TL

[beerdrinker]

Did a little experiment with half a kilo of pale malt mashed with 1.5L at 67C and using my new Ph meter i got a reading of 4.8 nearly straight away i added a third of a teaspoon of bicarb mixed with water and the pH jumped to about 6.5. added a teaspoon of buffer5.2 after 15 mins and it brought it down to 5.7. A little bicarb seems to go a long way!

[Ed]

bd, I'm surprised that with a starting water pH of over 7 and using pale malt you are ending up at pH 4.8. Just going on pH value alone, I would think your water isn't overly soft (mine is 6.5 out of the tap). Is your pH meter temperature compensative, and do you calibrate it? If it doesn't compensate for temperature then add about 0.3 to the reading and make sure it's properly calibrated. I actually prefer using indicator papers to my pH meter, I find them easier.

Cheers, Ed

[beerdrinker]

Hi Ed,my new pH meter is temperature compensative,i didnt think of that. I just used it out of the box like my old one i broke. Is there an easy way to calibrate them without buying the calibrating liquid? funny how i get the exact same pH with both pH meters? Cheers!

[beerdrinker]

I have some pH5.2 buffer,would mixing that with some distilled water work? Just got another mini fridge! gonna have 2 on the go now another fridge mate, move some food outta my fridge to make way for cold conditioning keg setup,100L boiler, 60L fermenters and maybe a beer filter where does this stop? microbrewery

[Kevnlis]

I have some pH5.2 buffer,would mixing that with some distilled water work?

There will not be enough salts in distilled water to properly mash and ferment the grains. I do not know exactly how much of what is added to the water by pH5.2, but I would suggest using at least half tap water to be safe.

where does this stop?

I am told... death

[beerdrinker]

I meant using the distilled water and 5.2 to calibrate the pH meter

[Ed]

It may work, I don't know. Ideally you want to calibrate the meter with 2 different solutions. If using just one solution, go for the calibration fluid closest to the reading you're interested in. Bit of reading here:
http://www.monashscientific.com.au/pHCa ... alibration
and here:
http://www.nt.ntnu.no/scale/pHelectrode.html

Calibration should be done on a regular basis, another reason I prefer to do any mash pH checking with papers

Cheers, Ed

[beerdrinker]

Hey Ed i just calibrated my pH meter using a borax solution as per instructions. The pH of borax and water is 9.18 @ 25C and my meter registed 8.87 I was going to add sodium bicarb to an AG batch tomorrow to achieve a pH of 5.2. I would have really been at 5.51 Thanks for the advise! i was so sure my meter was right on.

[beerdrinker]

Did an AG today using half RO water and half carbon filtered tap, i added some pH5.2 and got a mas pH of 5.20! i stopped the sparge at 1.014 must have been heaps of sugars left. mash temp was also pretty close. something caused a substancial increase in efficiency? was getting 60% before