Cider Yeast?

[Conrad]

Just enquiring as to what yeast would be recommended for a cider.

Im looking at making one with apple juice (underover1's recipie) and some extra fermentables. What extras should I use to not make it TOO dry? Would adding honey make it too sweet? Would dextrose make it too dry?

An what yeast should I use? Ale, Lager, Wine, Champagne? undercover1 mentions using a wine yeast, is this OK? Good? The best?

Thanks in advance.

[undercover1]

Conrad,
The wine section of your local HB store has a completely different range of product than the beer section. You need to explore it a bit.
Any general purpose wine yeast will do, but see if you can get champagne yeast- it seems to flocculate less. A pinch of nutrient is not a bad idea either.
Wine yeasts tend to brew out up to 15-16% alcohol if left alone. Honey or any other fermentable will give you a higher OG and a higher final alcohol content, but will not affect sweetness of the final product, so if you want to retain some sweetness, either add 100g of (not fully fermentable) lactose per litre, or drink the finished product within three months or so of bottling.
After six to ten months in the bottle it will become quite dry as the residual yeast does it's work beyond simple carbonation- not sour, but dry.
A word of warning- you need at least two identical FG readings before bottling, preferably a couple of days apart- this stuff will blow if you bottle too soon. Three week minimum in the fermenter, too.

[Tony]

100g/litre? Do you not mean 10g/litre

Tony

[undercover1]

No...I mean 100g/litre. I don't think 10g/litre would be detectable enough to make a difference in the finished cider after two months or so in the bottle.
Lactose is not very sweet to begin with, and it is not completely infermentable. I have never found any table or figures to indicate how much of it gets converted, but taste testing over about a dozen batches of apple cider, perry & fruit wine, made with varying amounts, leads me to think that around 40 to 50% of it gets used, more if the brew if left in the bottle for an extended period.
Accordingly, if Conrad wants a sweet cider, I would suggest using 100g/litre, or at least a kilogram for 10l or more of juice. It is no more expensive than maltodex or dextrose.

[Conrad]

Thanks UC1.

I think I will be going down to the supermarket to get myself some apple juice soon. Do I use the long life stuff? or can I try that expensive "freshly squeezed" stuff that is couldy and has "bits" in it as long as it has no preservatives? Do you think it would make a difference to the taste? Maybe a mix?

I ask about not making the cider too dry as reading through the posts here it seems to indicate that some ciders end up almost too dry for drinking?! Would adding your recommended lactose boost the alcohol high? What is your % roughly in the ones you make?

Would an ale yeast make a difference? Why would I used a wine yeast (not an argument, just a question as I dont know why) over a ale or lager yeast? What yeasts come in the cider kits?

Lots of questions I know, but I guess how else do you learn I'm wanting to make something for the girlfriend who got me my first home brew kit for my birthday last October, and now I have 3 fermentors, have done 9 brews and love it. She is often heard telling friends that "I have created a monster!" lol

[undercover1]

Do I use the long life stuff? or can I try that expensive "freshly squeezed" stuff that is cloudy and has "bits" in it as long as it has no preservatives? Do you think it would make a difference to the taste? Maybe a mix? - The best I have found is organic single apple juice, that is, everything in the bottle is from Fujis, or Pink Ladies or whatever. But it is expensive. The long life in plastic bottles is fine, cloudy would be OK as well but if there is too much pulp in the finished cider you can get off flavours as the pulp rots in the bottle. You need to filter it through muslin at least. Maybe try long life first. The main thing is to check the label for preservatives.
I ask about not making the cider too dry as reading through the posts here it seems to indicate that some ciders end up almost too dry for drinking?! Would adding your recommended lactose boost the alcohol high? What is your % roughly in the ones you make? As the lactose does not fully ferment, it does not boost the alcohol as high as, say, dextrose. I think the highest I have hit was an OG of 1070 and an FG of 1010. Don't have my chart here to do the calculations, but it is strong. The mango wine has turned into something like mango brandy, but couldn't take an OG reading due to all the fruit pulp in it when it was started off. The juice bottle labels give you a sugar content- you can work out how much if any additional dextrose, honey etc you should add for your desired OG.
Would an ale yeast make a difference? Why would I use a wine yeast (not an argument, just a question as I don't know why) over a ale or lager yeast? What yeasts come in the cider kits? - You would use a wine yeast because they can survive the higher alcohol levels. I think most beer yeasts die at around 9%- wine yeast keeps plugging away. If you want weak cider, of 5% or so, try beer yeast, but this may affect the flavour. I do not know what is in the cider kits- only made two, found them very disappointing and switched to all-juice.
Lots of questions I know, but I guess how else do you learn- Indeed! Try a long life apple juice with wine yeast & dextrose first. Then the same apple juice with dextrose and lactose. Then apple & pear juice, with or without orange peel, cloves & nutmeg. Leave some unprimed and drink it warmed with brown sugar in it...I could go on. May be a good idea to invest in a 15l fermenter too, to reduce your headspace. And keep your 25l ones free for beers, of course.

[Oliver]

Would an ale yeast make a difference? Why would I used a wine yeast (not an argument, just a question as I dont know why) over a ale or lager yeast? What yeasts come in the cider kits?

Different yeasts produce different flavors. So an ale yeast (used in a beer) will give you a malty, fruity beer. Lager yeast in a beer will produce a brew that is cleaner tasting and crisper (as opposed to malty) than an ale yeast. Wine/champagne yeasts will produce a different flavor again.

Within the ale/lager/wine yeasts, particular strains will produce particular results.

Also, wine yeasts can generally tolerate higher alcohol production than beer yeasts, hence the fact that some strong homebrew recipes recommend adding a wine yeast if fermentation becomes "stuck".

Cheers,

Oliver