Designed an AG recipe - your thoughts

[rotten]

G'day all.
I designed another AG recipe and thought I would post it for your thoughts. I won't post all of them but this seemed postable. To me it sounds & looks balanced, although there is no way to know till I try it. Although not completely intended to be , it's very loosely based on a bohemian pilsener. I'm drinkling a partial i designed again loosely based on this now & love it, not the same though, completely different hops.

3.25 kg Pilsener
0.8 kg Vienna
0.5 kg Munich 1

20 gm magnum @ 60 min
20 gm Ultra @ 20 min
20 gm Sterling @ 10 min
41.5 IBU
1053 OG

US-05 yeast ( couldn't decide on anything close to what i want)
mash @64c
made to 20 ltr

You guys have been great, i wouldn't be doing AG without HB&B
Cheers

[drsmurto]

I have played around adding munich or vienna to pilsners and found them to be a bit muddled.

The best pilsners i have made have been 100% pilsner malt (either weyermann or JW).

Hops - i wouldn't bitter with magnum and have never used Ultra or Sterling. I like to use a bittering hop such as perle or northern brewer (German not US) and then save the low AA% noble hops for flavour/aroma ie. saaz for bo pils and hallertau/tettnang for german pils.

That said the description for ultra and sterling sound like they would work fine in a pilsner. Mt Hood is apparently also good for pilsners but haven't used it either.

You need a good lager yeast for a pilsner. I know some people make faux lagers with US05 and nottingham at the low end of their ferment temps but to get that clean, crisp result you really do need a lager yeast. I have never used a dry lager yeast so cant help you there. Plenty of good liquid lager yeasts, last batch i used the czech pils (Wyeast 2278)and have had success with the budvar yeast (WY2000) but my clear favourite is the White Labs german bock yeast (WLP833).

If it was me i would start off with something very simple to set yourself a baseline from which you can experiment.

100% pils malt
Similar hop schedule to what you have suggested but using noble hops for flavour and aroma and a neutral, european bittering hop.
Good lager yeast fermented at lager temps, a diacetyl rest if necessary followed by a long lagering period at 0-1C for as long as you can.

My 2 cents
DrSmurto

[SuperBroo]

followed by a long lagering period at 0-1C for as long as you can.

I just hope "as long as you can" at your place...

is a bit longer than "as long as you can" is at my place, which is not very long at all

One of the things I love about AG, even if you dont wait long enough, you still end up with really nice beer...

cheers to all, have a good weekend,
Grog

[rotten]

drsmurto wrote:
followed by a long lagering period at 0-1C for as long as you can.

I just hope "as long as you can" at your place...

is a bit longer than "as long as you can" is at my place, which is not very long at all

As long as I can at my place will be determined by patience, as I would effectively have to slow my brewing down as I only have 2 fermentors, 1 spot in the fridge, and I rack now. I notice the difference so racking won't stop, neither will brewing. Faux lager may still be on the cards.
Cheers

[speedie]

try 34/70 dehydrated yeast ferment @ 10 c and pull back on the IBUs
this beer should be more on the malt side
as stated use only pale malt for style

[rotten]

try 34/70 dehydrated yeast ferment @ 10 c and pull back on the IBUs

I did think about that yeast, haven't heard much about it around here though. 10c may be a struggle, I could do 16c no worries.
Cheers

[bullfrog]

Holding 16C with US-05 should get you a clean finish, along the lines of what you're looking for. Don't let it drop too much lower, though, or you'll be having to wake it up constantly. I often brew US-05 at 16 but I've been told that it doesn't like to drop below 15.

[lethaldog]

try 34/70 dehydrated yeast ferment @ 10 c and pull back on the IBUs

I did think about that yeast, haven't heard much about it around here though. 10c may be a struggle, I could do 16c no worries.
Cheers

Ive used it on occasion and every time it seems to do the job really well, i prefer liquids but sometimes when i get a bit lazy i pitch dry's and 34/70 is a good dry yeast!!!

[squirt in the turns]

Holding 16C with US-05 should get you a clean finish, along the lines of what you're looking for. Don't let it drop too much lower, though, or you'll be having to wake it up constantly. I often brew US-05 at 16 but I've been told that it doesn't like to drop below 15.

I used US-05 for the first time on my first 2 AG brews, at 18 degrees. I know it has a reputation as a less vigorous yeast, but I found it interesting that it appeared very lazy: krausen never got very high and no airlock activity at all (though my fermenter doesn't seal properly, but I usually get some blurping). Also interesting (to me, at least) was the almost pure white krausen, whereas yeasts I've used before have had all sorts of browns and bits of crap rising out of the wort. No complaints, just observations.

A bo pils is on my list as the brew after next. I've got a Brewcraft 50g packet of Saaz from my days of buying at the woefully understocked LHBS, so I'll pick up something European for bittering. Grain will be all pilsner, and I'll have a crack at decoctions.

How do you determine if a diacetyl rest is necessary?

[bullfrog]

How do you determine if a diacetyl rest is necessary?

My rule is that a diacetyl rest is needed if you're using a lager yeast. Only done a few lagers but they all got a diacetyl rest. I've never done it with an ale, but they ferment at diacetyl rest temps anyway and I leave them in primary for two weeks...so I suppose you could more properly say that all of my ales get a diacetyl rest.

[warra48]

Some yeasts are more prone to produce diacetyl than others. You need to have a look at the specs on the yeast producers websites to see what the particular yeast's characteristics are.

Having said that, I'm a believer in pitching the yeast from a 4 to 5 litre starter for lagers, and cold pitching, ie having the starter and wort chilled to my fermentation temperature. I think that substantially diminishes the production of diacetyl. I've succesfully fermented lagers this way without a diacetyl rest.
however, it doens't do any harm to do a diacetyl rest if you are that way inclined.

[speedie]

34/70 is a really well know yeast it is from European origin has a proven track record
With many breweries it will ferment down the 6-8c

If you want to do a lager this is the yeast to use it is a true “saccharomyces uvarum”
Strain in dehydrated form

Forget all the polony that has been preached about liquid cultures and try it
You will be truly satisfied
If you check with most micros they would or will be using
Speedie

Ps you will get a lot of sulfur production with is strain so don’t be put off
It would benefit from a diacetyl rest
You need to train your pellet and nose to preserve this fault which funnily enough is only relevant to lager and not ale
Forget the us 05 or formerly 56 it is ale only yeast!

[rotten]

I'm leaning towards the 34/70 at the moment, for practical reasons mainly. I can give it a diacetyl rest quite easily. Whats the max temp range to rest at? I don't have anything against liquid yeast as i have not used them as yet.

Will also do 100% Pilsener malt. Whilst I like to learn on my own, other peoples experiences are always good to learn by as well.

I have a few weeks to decide on this one, just used magnum tonight in a TL SNPA clone for bittering, Pale Ale I know, but the smell would be the same either way. I will still use the ultra & sterling just to try something different, and they do appear to match what I'm going for. They are both low AA% and I could use them for other brews quite easily.

I have used Perle before, Nortern Brewer sounded good for this tyle too, what if I went with that and dropped IBU a bit, say 30-35? It probably was a bit high anyway for any type of pils. My partial used tett (bittering) and saaz (flavour/aroma) at 22 IBU, tastes great, high alcohol, will try to replicate again in future for sure.

Cheers

[bullfrog]

Forget the us 05 or formerly 56 it is ale only yeast!

Another example of why I very much dislike you. You completely missed why US-05 was being suggested then tried to add your own little touch of trivia to show your knowledge. EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT 05 USED TO BE 56, IT WAS ONLY A SHORT TIME AGO THAT THE CODE CHANGED!

Gahh, you make me rage sometimes...

Getting back on point, have you ever brewed US-05 at low temps (16C)? It mimics a lager strain very well. The only reason that this was being suggested in the first place was that temperature control was in question, yet you walk in and say "no, forget that temperature control may be an issue, use a lager yeast in temperatures that are undesirable and get yourself an end product that you're really not looking for."

Please, please, please go away.

[speedie]

rotten give it a go
putting up some good avice about lager is not a problem is it
cheers

[speedie]

Rotten here is another suggestion
Do your mash the way your design has been put together
Split your base into two 12 liter vessels use 34/70 @ 8 degrees and
Use US 05 in the other half @ say 16 degrees

When both batches have fermented out cleared and been bottled blind taste them on some of your beer, drinking buddies and get there opinion on the two brews

This will give you an idea of which yeast suits your personal tastes
The up side of it is you will have two good cultures for future brews

Hopefully you see this as a positive suggestion

[hirns]

try 34/70 dehydrated yeast ferment @ 10 c and pull back on the IBUs........use 34/70 @ 8 degrees

I did think about that yeast, haven't heard much about it around here though. 10c may be a struggle, I could do 16c no worries.
Cheers

Oh dear!

Hirns

[rotten]

don't worry hirns it won't happen. I may use the yeast at 16-18c though, colder than that now is just not possible.

[hirns]

Others with more experience will hopefully correct me, but as the higher temps I'd be still thinking its best to go the fake lager with US 06/AKA US 56, unless you want to try another psuedo lager yeast like kolsch.

Cheers

Hirns

[bullfrog]

18 will still be a clean ferment with 05, but not as crisp as you'd get at 16. Seeing as lagers tend to go for that crisp finish then that's what I'd be aiming for. Remember, you can always freeze some PET bottles of water and pop them next to your fermenter as a rudimentary temp control. Works better if you get yourself a cooler to pop them into and people have reported great results with a cooler bag available at Bunnings that fits most fermenters plus ice bottles very comfortably for very little expense.